JF-17 PFX program

China could independently produce disposable lighters from raw materials to the final product without relying on any foreign country. It has domestic access to all necessary resources, including hydrocarbons for plastics and butane fuel, iron ore for steel components, copper and zinc for brass parts, magnesium, and rare earth elements (such as cerium and lanthanum) for the ferrocerium flint alloy.
I consulted multiple AI tools about this question. The answers I received were almost identical.

China possesses the full capability and is actually doing this.
The United States and Russia possess the full capability, but due to economic factors, they are not doing so.
Besides these countries, no other country in the world possesses this capability, nor do they have any interest in developing it.

Possessing this capability means possessing a complete basic industrial capacity.
Once it's confirmed that you possess this capability, there are a great many things you can do. It means you have become a top-tier global power. The United States, Russia, and China will primarily invite you to join the P5 club.

A tiny disposable lighter is actually the ticket to the P5 Club. Unexpected, isn't it?
 
If we discuss within the established framework of the JF-17 fighter jet project, namely "lightweight" and "cost-effective," then we can delve into more detailed discussions.

However, if we deviate from this framework, it will involve extremely complex international relations on which no consensus can be reached. We will never reach an agreement, and this topic will devolve into an endless and meaningless war of words.

Regarding the question of whether Pakistan needs to strive for 100% local manufacturing of the JF-17 fighter jet, I have a suggestion:

You can copy and paste the following text and have any AI answer it.

Of all the countries in the world, and disregarding economic factors for a moment, which country could independently produce disposable lighters, from raw materials to the final product, without relying on any foreign country?

This problem seems simple at first glance, but the underlying issues are very complex. We can continue the discussion once our friends truly understand these issues.
No need for a “war of words”; the Gripen E is an evolution of the Gripen C. Similarly a design modification of the JF-17; to move the wheels outward, and more robust or rougher landing strips, and making room for recessed (not internal) weapons underneath Is evolutionary, not a shift way from “light weight” and “cost effective”.
 
No need for a “war of words”; the Gripen E is an evolution of the Gripen C. Similarly a design modification of the JF-17; to move the wheels outward, and more robust or rougher landing strips, and making room for recessed (not internal) weapons underneath Is evolutionary, not a shift way from “light weight” and “cost effective”.
You're using the Gripen C to Gripen E evolution as an analogy for the future development direction of the JF-17B3. From a technical standpoint, there's nothing wrong with that. However, in reality, things might turn out very differently from what you imagine.

The development from the Gripen C to the Gripen E represents a revolutionary change. The Gripen C is too low-end, while the Gripen E is too high-end. The Gripen C features a powerful engine driving a relatively outdated airframe. The Gripen E's engine has been improved, but not in a revolutionary way, while its airframe has undergone a revolutionary upgrade. This creates a kind of illusion.

The development process from the JF-17B1 to the B3 is somewhat similar to this situation, but it doesn't apply to future development directions.

The JF-17B3's RD-93 engine is no longer sufficient to perfectly support its airframe. Replacing the engine would at best only compensate for its existing shortcomings. For example, it could provide more powerful and stable power for its existing avionics system and add missing features like IRST. These improvements would enhance the JF-17B3's combat capabilities, but would not reach the level of a revolutionary upgrade.

Another direction is "weight reduction." By extensively using lighter materials to reduce its empty weight, it would significantly increase the fighter's range and payload capacity. This would require a significant modification of the airframe structure design. Therefore, during this process, stealth shaping could be considered (only shaping, not a full stealth design).

However, these improvements would significantly increase its cost. Its price would no longer have a price advantage compared to the J-10CE. Would the PAF still accept this?
 
You're using the Gripen C to Gripen E evolution as an analogy for the future development direction of the JF-17B3. From a technical standpoint, there's nothing wrong with that. However, in reality, things might turn out very differently from what you imagine.

The development from the Gripen C to the Gripen E represents a revolutionary change. The Gripen C is too low-end, while the Gripen E is too high-end. The Gripen C features a powerful engine driving a relatively outdated airframe. The Gripen E's engine has been improved, but not in a revolutionary way, while its airframe has undergone a revolutionary upgrade. This creates a kind of illusion.

The development process from the JF-17B1 to the B3 is somewhat similar to this situation, but it doesn't apply to future development directions.

The JF-17B3's RD-93 engine is no longer sufficient to perfectly support its airframe. Replacing the engine would at best only compensate for its existing shortcomings. For example, it could provide more powerful and stable power for its existing avionics system and add missing features like IRST. These improvements would enhance the JF-17B3's combat capabilities, but would not reach the level of a revolutionary upgrade.

Another direction is "weight reduction." By extensively using lighter materials to reduce its empty weight, it would significantly increase the fighter's range and payload capacity. This would require a significant modification of the airframe structure design. Therefore, during this process, stealth shaping could be considered (only shaping, not a full stealth design).

However, these improvements would significantly increase its cost. Its price would no longer have a price advantage compared to the J-10CE. Would the PAF still accept this?
Block-3 already has some material changes which were introduced through work with CAC. In addition some additional power was wrung out of RD-93 through Klimov and other experienced RD-33 operators directly on the ground at Kamra.

But, it was “revolutionary” but a small evolution.
 
Block-3 already has some material changes which were introduced through work with CAC. In addition some additional power was wrung out of RD-93 through Klimov and other experienced RD-33 operators directly on the ground at Kamra.

But, it was “revolutionary” but a small evolution.
This is good news.

Unfortunately, we don't have much information on this. Sorry.
 
You're using the Gripen C to Gripen E evolution as an analogy for the future development direction of the JF-17B3. From a technical standpoint, there's nothing wrong with that. However, in reality, things might turn out very differently from what you imagine.

The development from the Gripen C to the Gripen E represents a revolutionary change. The Gripen C is too low-end, while the Gripen E is too high-end. The Gripen C features a powerful engine driving a relatively outdated airframe. The Gripen E's engine has been improved, but not in a revolutionary way, while its airframe has undergone a revolutionary upgrade. This creates a kind of illusion.

The development process from the JF-17B1 to the B3 is somewhat similar to this situation, but it doesn't apply to future development directions.

The JF-17B3's RD-93 engine is no longer sufficient to perfectly support its airframe. Replacing the engine would at best only compensate for its existing shortcomings. For example, it could provide more powerful and stable power for its existing avionics system and add missing features like IRST. These improvements would enhance the JF-17B3's combat capabilities, but would not reach the level of a revolutionary upgrade.

Another direction is "weight reduction." By extensively using lighter materials to reduce its empty weight, it would significantly increase the fighter's range and payload capacity. This would require a significant modification of the airframe structure design. Therefore, during this process, stealth shaping could be considered (only shaping, not a full stealth design).

However, these improvements would significantly increase its cost. Its price would no longer have a price advantage compared to the J-10CE. Would the PAF still accept this?
What is the price difference between JF-17B3 and the J-10CE. I agree that if the difference in price is narrowed but the capabilities are not “revolutionary” it would not justify the costs. Therefore, it would only be logical the PAF would require a revolutionary design improvement if it were to justify approaching the costs of the J-10CE. The PAF could always buy more J-10CE, but considering it does not seem to be signaling such, means they are trying to see how far they can push the JF-17, even if it means going beyond the current design. How far beyond the current design, and at what costs, I guess we will have to wait and see.
 
What is the price difference between JF-17B3 and the J-10CE. I agree that if the difference in price is narrowed but the capabilities are not “revolutionary” it would not justify the costs. Therefore, it would only be logical the PAF would require a revolutionary design improvement if it were to justify approaching the costs of the J-10CE. The PAF could always buy more J-10CE, but considering it does not seem to be signaling such, means they are trying to see how far they can push the JF-17, even if it means going beyond the current design. How far beyond the current design, and at what costs, I guess we will have to wait and see.
Thing is, if you develop up the JF-17 into something more than what it is right now, the NRE overhead of that development will have to factor into the total cost of subsequent JF-17 variants. So, the difference between the upgraded JF-17 and the J-10CE might not be much, if at all.

IMO, the better alternative is to pursue a clean-sheen light/medium-weight fighter platform built for current/next-gen subsystems from the ground-up.

JF-17 was designed at a time when the PAF wanted a multi-mode PD radar similar to AN/APG-66. We're now in an era of integrating AESA-based arrays across the entire airframe; times have changed and things are coming into play that the Thunder wasn't necessarily designed for (e.g., having enough space to house the electronics necessary for MUM-T).

Yes, there'll be a higher cost to developing such a fighter (let's call it a 5-minus generation), but if we tie to an industrial program, we can actually channel some of that spending inwards.

Overall, the PAF needs a versatile medium-weight fighter capable of executing strike missions, achieving high sortie rates and high availability, and integrating with modern warfighting elements (MUM-T, CEC, etc.).

One option to look at could literally be a simpler version of the J-35AE, i.e., take out the high-maintenance LO skins, turn the internal weapons bay into a subsystems bay (for EW/ECM, DEWs, etc) or expanded fuel bay, go back to the FC-31 approach of mounting munitions under the wings via hardpoints (intentionally ditching the stealth), and use that in conjunction with the stealth J-35AEs. Basically, make a version of the J-35AE that's like South Korea's KF-21 in its current state, basically.
 
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Thing is, if you develop up the JF-17 into something more than what it is right now, the NRE overhead of that development will have to factor into the total cost of subsequent JF-17 variants. So, the difference between the upgraded JF-17 and the J-10CE might not be much, if at all.

IMO, the better alternative is to pursue a clean-sheen light/medium-weight fighter platform built for current/next-gen subsystems from the ground-up.

JF-17 was designed at a time when the PAF wanted a multi-mode PD radar similar to AN/APG-66. We're now in an era of integrating AESA-based arrays across the entire airframe; times have changed and things are coming into play that the Thunder wasn't necessarily designed for (e.g., having enough space to house the electronics necessary for MUM-T).

Yes, there'll be a higher cost to developing such a fighter (let's call it a 5-minus generation), but if we tie to an industrial program, we can actually channel some of that spending inwards.

Overall, the PAF needs a versatile medium-weight fighter capable of executing strike missions, achieving high sortie rates and high availability, and integrating with modern warfighting elements (MUM-T, CEC, etc.).

One option to look at could literally be a simpler version of the J-35AE, i.e., take out the high-maintenance LO skins, turn the internal weapons bay into a subsystems bay (for EW/ECM, DEWs, etc) or expanded fuel bay, go back to the FC-31 approach of mounting munitions under the wings via hardpoints (intentionally ditching the stealth), and use that in conjunction with the stealth J-35AEs. Basically, make a version of the J-35AE that's like South Korea's KF-21 in its current state, basically.
I agree with the first half of the argument, the needs have exceeded what the JF-17 can modified into. IMHO, the needs exceed the capabilities of the J-10CE in some aspects. Pakistan also has a need for numbers as well as to keep within a budget, for R&D, to build, and to operate.

Going for a less capable J-35AE would, IMHO, defeat the utility of having such a design. Why bother all the R&D for a design nearly as expensive but much less capable.

If we assume, the WS-19 is cleared for export in about a decade, and the price has been brought down, a design can be built around a single WS-19 engine.

To justify the expense of a clean sheet design, we need a revolutionary design, not just an evolutionary design. With the current JF-17 design, we are talking about what the F-16 became; addition of RAM paint, improvement in electronics, improved engine, and a longer lifespan for the air frame. The PAF has to make the call if it wants to spend the money or get a partner to help fund a clean sheet design.

If the PAF is seeking the KAAN and J-35AE for the high end role, they will need a workhorse that can be competitive in a domain where Th e Indians will have layers of air defense and every one of their fighters armed with 200+km missiles.

In such a domain, EW may not be enough. A clean sheet design; a modestly stealthy design most likely, with layers of offensive and defensive capabilities, will be necessary. Putting all the burden on a few squadrons of J-35AE and KAAN maybe stretching the force too thin. Commonality of engine and sub-systems with the J-35AE could make this clean sheet design an attractive offering to countries seeking a trainer, and lighter strike platform to operate alongside the J-35AE, which would be the air cover.

As I said earlier, the calculation is one the PAF to makes but for perhaps 20-30% more per aircraft, the PAF could field a clean sheet design that could attract buyers, and cover its higher costs, and get a much more capable platform in the long run. I have a design in mind, and I put it this way the J-35AE has two weapons bay with a total 2000 kg of weapons carriage. Imagine a clean sheet design around the WS-19 with a 1000 kg of internal carriage; with one of those J-35AE weapons bays. Imagine the kinds of munition that design could carry; especially in the strike role, including in the nuclear role. Such a design would be given the Pakistan-Saudi agreement the teeth they have been seeking.

P.s. similar to the JF-17 program acquiring R&D from the MiG companies MiG-33 research program, the clean sheet design I envision could build on R&D from the now defunct MiG’s LMFS; which envisioned a design around a single RD-33 sized engine, in one configuration.

Here is a look at the LMFS, designed decades ago, with a view focused on its single internal weapons bay. In my opinion, the wheels will have to be housed similar to the Gripen E, to maximize the use of that internal bay; room enough (4 meters long) to house 4 BVR missiles internally; stored in a two on top of two configuration. The tail configuration could be improved to mirror the “4 poster” similar to the J-35AE. DSI intake similar to the J-35AE as well.

With the WS-19, each missile could have its weight increased from 200-230 kg of the PL-15 to perhaps 300 kg of a next generation, longer ranged A2A missile. Something like the 400 km GoKhan-ER.

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A 1000-1200 kg increased range version of the SOM-J could be carried internally (designed to fit inside an F-35 weapons bay) for conventional or even nuclear missions.

This was one design studied, the twin engine design fed into the Indians work with the Russians on their AMCA project. But just like Microsoft borrowing from Xerox, after Apple was already borrowing from Xerox…

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Remember the MiG-33, and its design contributions to the JF-17:
1769461664278.jpeg
 
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What is the price difference between JF-17B3 and the J-10CE. I agree that if the difference in price is narrowed but the capabilities are not “revolutionary” it would not justify the costs. Therefore, it would only be logical the PAF would require a revolutionary design improvement if it were to justify approaching the costs of the J-10CE. The PAF could always buy more J-10CE, but considering it does not seem to be signaling such, means they are trying to see how far they can push the JF-17, even if it means going beyond the current design. How far beyond the current design, and at what costs, I guess we will have to wait and see.
Known reference ranges:
1. The price of the JF-17B3 is approximately US$35 million; the price range of the J-10CE is US$40-60 million.
2. The prices of mainstream medium-thrust turbofan engines worldwide, excluding the RD-93 engine, are all in the range of US$10-15 million (EJ200, F414, WS-21, etc.). The price of the WS-19 engine may exceed US$15 million (estimated price).

If the JF-17 series fighter jet is upgraded with a different engine in future developments, corresponding upgrades to other internal components will also be necessary. Therefore, we believe its price will be comparable to or even exceed that of the J-10CE. ------ This is closely related to the production platforms and production scale of these two fighter jets.
======================================================
I have previously stated my opinion:
The JF-17B3 has pushed the potential of the JF-17 fighter platform to its limit. There is some room for future upgrades, but it is very limited, unless the underlying platform is completely redesigned.
If we were to refactor the underlying platform, that would clearly be beyond the scope of what we can discuss.
I agree with the first half of the argument, the needs have exceeded what the JF-17 can modified into. IMHO, the needs exceed the capabilities of the J-10CE in some aspects. Pakistan also has a need for numbers as well as to keep within a budget, for R&D, to build, and to operate.
The airframe platform and engine of a fighter jet determine its potential limits. While changing the engine after the airframe platform is fixed can indeed alter its capabilities, the current mainstream medium-thrust turbofan engines such as the EJ200, F414, and WS21/WS19 have only relatively small performance differences. We can understand this as human development in this field having essentially reached its limits.

If we consider the Gripen E as a top-tier fighter jet product using a single medium-thrust turbofan engine, then the JF-17 can reach or even slightly exceed this capability. However, discussing performance without considering price is meaningless. The price of the Gripen E is already equivalent to that of a 5th-generation fighter jet.

From a purely technical perspective, the JF-17 could certainly be upgraded to a higher level. However, this would be pointless. It would deviate from the constraint framework of "high cost-effectiveness" that I previously mentioned for the JF-17.
 
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I have previously stated my opinion:
The JF-17B3 has pushed the potential of the JF-17 fighter platform to its limit. There is some room for future upgrades, but it is very limited,
unless the underlying platform is completely redesigned.
If we were to refactor the underlying platform, that would clearly be beyond the scope of what we can discuss.
I understand your opinion. But you keep leaving each post with that last line. I understand the “JF-17 PFX” would no longer be “a JF-17” if it went down the path I have described above, and I would agree; it would be a clean sheet design.

Perhaps you don’t want to discuss this possibility, but it seems like it maybe what the PAF desires. As I stated, they may want capabilities that the J-10CE can’t provide, even if the price comes closer and closer to that price of the J-10CE.

I have shown you a design, in the ballpark of what they may desire, due to its lower signature, for operations in an environment with a dense IADs across the border.

Perhaps the thread is not named appropriately. The Future PAF fighters are set to include the J-35AE, and possibly the KAAN, as well as another fighter. Perhaps this thread should drop the JF-17 name, and just call it the PFX. Unless we get clarification from the PAF, we will have to wonder if the requirement is for an evolutionary design or a revolutionary design.

P.s. thank you clarifying the prices of each aircraft.
 
I understand your opinion. But you keep leaving each post with that last line. I understand the “JF-17 PFX” would no longer be “a JF-17” if it went down the path I have described above, and I would agree; it would be a clean sheet design.

Perhaps you don’t want to discuss this possibility, but it seems like it maybe what the PAF desires. As I stated, they may want capabilities that the J-10CE can’t provide, even if the price comes closer and closer to that price of the J-10CE.

I have shown you a design, in the ballpark of what they may desire, due to its lower signature, for operations in an environment with a dense IADs across the border.

Perhaps the thread is not named appropriately. The Future PAF fighters are set to include the J-35AE, and possibly the KAAN, as well as another fighter. Perhaps this thread should drop the JF-17 name, and just call it the PFX. Unless we get clarification from the PAF, we will have to wonder if the requirement is for an evolutionary design or a revolutionary design.

P.s. thank you clarifying the prices of each aircraft.
If we discuss this outside of a defined framework, it will involve extremely complex international relations. This would lead to an endless and meaningless war of words.

For example:
The PFX is a medium-sized stealth fighter with either a single high-thrust engine or two medium-thrust engines...
1. Who will finance it?
2. Who will provide the original design?
3. How to avoid conflicts of interest?
...

This would escalate the topic into a war of words. Is that what you want? Review the earlier parts of this thread, and you will find the answer.
 
If we discuss this outside of a defined framework, it will involve extremely complex international relations. This would lead to an endless and meaningless war of words.

For example:
The PFX is a medium-sized stealth fighter with either a single high-thrust engine or two medium-thrust engines...
1. Who will finance it?
2. Who will provide the original design?
3. How to avoid conflicts of interest?
...

This would escalate the topic into a war of words. Is that what you want? Review the earlier parts of this thread, and you will find the answer.
Lacking clear parameters from the PAF, we are left to speculate. But yielding to practicality, and the name of the thread; “JF-17 PFX” let’s assume minimal structural changes.

From this point, let’s also bring back the point you raise about making sure any sub-systems integrated have to be done in harmony; not trying to pack the jet with every modern capability, but finding the right balance to suite the most likely threats.

Having said these two things; what do you envision the JF-17 PFX; the evolutionary design beyond the current block 3 to look like? How do you see it staying competitive against a modernized IAF and Indian IADs?
 
Having said these two things; what do you envision the JF-17 PFX; the evolutionary design beyond the current block 3 to look like? How do you see it staying competitive against a modernized IAF and Indian IADs?
Based on the agreed framework, my analysis is relatively conservative. This applies to versions after the JF-17B3, regardless of the suffix the PAF ultimately assigns to it.
1. The current RD-93 engine is insufficient to fully support the avionics system of the JF-17B3. Therefore, the power supply capacity needs to be addressed first. Deep modification or improvement of the RD-93 engine is one option; replacing it with a new engine is another. Both approaches are feasible, as long as they ultimately increase the power supply capacity.
2. After that, if the power supply capacity is sufficient, the missing IRST needs to be added.
3. The internal cannon can be removed and replaced with an external gun pod. This would save space and weight.
Other aspects can be slightly upgraded or improved, but there won't be significant changes.

If the PAF/PAC wants to further develop this platform, significant structural modifications are needed. My suggestion is to develop it into a UCAV. It could operate independently or in a MUM-T configuration with other fighter platforms. Of course, this would require significant involvement from the 611 Institute.
However, this might not be as cost-effective as simply purchasing an existing UCAV platform.

The development of lightweight, manned fighter jets based on a single medium-thrust engine has essentially reached its peak. Further significant advancements along this path are difficult. The options are either to switch to UCAVs, or to abandon the current platform and develop a new medium-sized manned fighter jet from scratch. The existing JF-17B3 can continue to be produced and undergo minor upgrades, but it's not worth investing heavily in further development.
 
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Any news when the first Prototype for PFX will emerge ?
If it is a scale up design , should not be too difficult
 

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