Operation Ghazab Lil Haq (Pakistan - Afghanistan War)

[Bilal]

really? nothing in terms of narrative, media coverage, existential threat, terrorism and territorial claims? be real.

Other than some past tactical cooperation between the two there is no calculus in which a strong Pakistan is in their interest. Not going to happen.

Gaza is far from a real existential threat to them. Proper functioning Muslim states that can potentially start cooperating is.

Hence what happened to country after country in the region where they have reduced them to a chaotic non-functioning husks of their former selves.

 

[Ak01]

Yes, really.

You tell me, what is the common theme in the two conflicts?

Taliban isn't an existential threat to us, and frankly neither is Hamas to them at this point.

What's common in terms of narrative? One country is actively annexing land every single day, removing residents from their homes, taking land, and foregoing rights for the people over there, and the Israeli narrative is to justify those actions because it was said to them by God that they are to be given that land.

Are you really saying that our narrative has anything in common with that? Come on man.

I just did.

Both Israel and Pakistan face the existential threat of their neighbours. The Arabs for israel, the Indians, Iranians and Afghans for us.

Asymmetric warfare via the proxies of our neighbours, cross border violations, terrorism etc.

Ethno Religious tensions.

Beyond that, in the two specific conflicts, media coverage tends to portray Afghanistan as the perpetual victim. Pakistan as a crazed, bloodthirsty neighbour. Hence the narrative, both are fighting this same narrative.

Most people on this thread want to see afghanistan and india levelled... who gives a toss how we do it. But the underlying reality is, theres only one small security state who has had enemies on every border plot against it, yet, has managed to come out on top...in this case, considering we face a similar threat environment, its not illogical to want to take some tips/assistance from them.

 

[Ak01]

Other than some past tactical cooperation between the two there is no calculus in which a strong Pakistan is in their interest. Not going to happen.

Gaza is far from a real existential threat to them. Proper functioning Muslim states that can potentially start cooperating is.

I disagree, because a proper functioning strong pakistan is unlikely to hold the kind of radical islamist ideas that they so much fear. Nothing terrifies them more than a radical islamic regime with nukes. A stable, friendly-ish Pakistan ensures their security, but also ours. I dont see any downfalls of a security relationship with israel. Heck, we could even see our water security issues become better, there are many areas of gain here for us.

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

What are you even smoking, man?

Firstly, Pakistan officially refused to send troops to Gaza or take part in any plan to disarm Hamas.

Second, it really doesn’t matter what the Afghan government claims. The Durand Line is an internationally recognized border , even India treats it as such. Only Afghan nationalists keep recycling this delusion of claiming Pakistani land while they can’t even properly control or govern the land already under them.

And the irony? They can’t even fully govern the territory they already have. Just the other day, they were opening fire on Tajik protesters.

I talk to Afghans in Toronto they all repeat this fiction that the British promised to return these territories back to Afghanistan after 100 years.

 

[Bilal]

I disagree, because a proper functioning strong pakistan is unlikely to hold the kind of radical islamist ideas that they so much fear. Nothing terrifies them more than a radical islamic regime with nukes. A stable, friendly-ish Pakistan ensures their security, but also ours. I dont see any downfalls of a security relationship with israel. Heck, we could even see our water security issues become better, there are many areas of gain here for us.

They don’t take risks, their modus operandi is elimination of even a hint of risk. Even when the tactical cooperation was at its peak they tried to neutralize the nascent nuclear program.

Their bet is to keep us bogged down and potentially deliver a devastating blow via cooperation with our neighbor to the east if chance arises.

Again Gaza is not even remotely an existential threat for them. Cooperation with the countries in their region and Pakistan is and so is the reach of certain weapons of ours.

 

[the vicious kind]

That might your version of history but we Afghans don't see it like that.

Afghans see Pakistan offering it's soil to be used by Americans to spy on Soviet Union. The Badabir airbase near Peshawar stationed CIA officials since mid 1950s thus inviting the Americans and Soviets into the region.

Before Soviets invaded Afghanistan both Pakistan and Iran were actively supporting so called mujahideen groups at behest of Americans against the recognised government of Afghanistan. What form of government Afghans had was non of Pakistan or Iran's business but since Shah's Iran and Pakistan were firmly in the American camp, they had to comply with what Americans wanted.

The same people you call namak harams were celebrated as heroes and the slogans of "Jihad e Afghanistan, Difa e Pakistan" were everywhere. The same namak harams stopped Soviet penetration into Pakistan.

The failure of Pakistani state to provide security for it's citizens, address grievances of it's people and contain spillover of jihadi ideology it has used for it's own interests is not Afghanistan's problem.

If pakistan is really interested in eliminating terrorism in the region, it must start by eliminating groups like Jaish e Mohammad, Sipah e sahaba, Lashkar e Jhangavi etc on it's own soil and stop using militant groups to earn money and advance it's aims. If you play with fire, you are bound to get burnt.

My friend, in Pakistan we also have a saying: ‘Yeh sab kuch America karwa raha hai’ ( America is behind everything) ...used whenever people want to blame outsiders for problems they don’t want to confront themselves.

Reality check: foreign powers have interfered in the region, yes ...but no nation can build a stable future by blaming outsiders forever. At some point, responsibility has to begin at home.

Afghanistan’s tragedy is not just about America, Pakistan, Iran, or the Soviets. It is also about the repeated failure of Afghan rulers and factions to build durable institutions, consolidate authority, and create a functioning state despite trillions dollars of natural resourses and wealth.

I have personally visited Jalalabad (2014), and what I saw convinced me that the problem runs deeper...there are serious internal fractures in the social and political fabric in Afghanistan. The Pushtoon contractor didnt let me hire non-pushtoons. Something i have never witnessed in Pakistan. There is just a natural resistance to outside investment.

Today, every of one your neighbour, be it Tajikistan, Iran, China and Pakistan has the same issue with you guys. Today , so many Afghans want to flee to the neighbouring countries they hate so much ? Why?

ISIL claims Kabul attack on Chinese restaurant that killed seven people
Tajikistan Reports New Militant Attack from Afghanistan;
Silence In Tehran As Afghan Ex-Commanders Are Killed

 

[Ak01]

They don’t take risks, their modus operandi is elimination of even a hint of risk. Even when the tactical cooperation was at its peak they tried to neutralize the nascent nuclear program.

Their bet is to keep us bogged down and potentially deliver a devastating blow via cooperation with our neighbor to the east if chance arises.

Again Gaza is not even remotely an existential threat for them. Cooperation with the countries in their region and Pakistan is and so is the reach of certain weapons.

I disagree.

Because even delivering a blow via India creates a scenario where Nukes are left in the hands of those who cannot be controlled. The entire idea is to not let nukes get out in the hands of those who could cause a threat.

Pakistan and Israel covertly ensuring neither will target eachother, once again would be a net benefit, we would get the co operation we need, and they would get the security guarantees they need. I dont see where the issue is here. Its a win win for us both. If their modus operandi is not taking risk, this is the only way, mobile tel's cannot be taken out as easily, look at op desert storm and the scuds. With total air superiority, the US was unable to pick them out. A scenario like that will never occur for us, so even blowing a devastating strike would not work in their favour, their best bet, and so is ours is to form a working partnership.

 

[Bilal]

I disagree.

Because even delivering a blow via India creates a scenario where Nukes are left in the hands of those who cannot be controlled. The entire idea is to not let nukes get out in the hands of those who could cause a threat.

Pakistan and Israel covertly ensuring neither will target eachother, once again would be a net benefit, we would get the co operation we need, and they would get the security guarantees they need. I dont see where the issue is here. Its a win win for us both. If their modus operandi is not taking risk, this is the only way, mobile tel's cannot be taken out as easily, look at op desert storm and the scuds. With total air superiority, the US was unable to pick them out. A scenario like that will never occur for us, so even blowing a devastating strike would not work in their favour, their best bet, and so is ours is to form a working partnership.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We know the constant effort to eliminate these nuclear weapons not just direct strike attempts but also (very nearly) by other means post Libya disclosures, this even after semi official assurances by Pakistan. You may disagree but it is what it is.

 

[the vicious kind]

I talk to Afghans in Toronto they all repeat this fiction that the British promised to return these territories back to Afghanistan after 100 years.

There is no credible legal document showing the British promised to ‘return’ these territories to Afghanistan after 100 years. Internationally, the Durand Line is treated as the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. Its just a talking/deflecting point among defranchised Afghans, who are have identity crises abroad.

 

[Ak01]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We know the constant effort to eliminate these nuclear weapons not just direct strike attempts but also (very nearly) by other means post Libya disclosures, this even after semi official assurances by Pakistan. You may disagree but it is what it is.

but the issue is we've always maintained an aggresive/hostile posture. Its never been an agreement/deal, this has never been tested, the pudding you refer to was never the same thing.

But lets agree to disagree. I do think however, there are security benefits and things we could learn from them.

 

[Bilal]

but the issue is we've always maintained an aggresive/hostile posture. Its never been an agreement/deal, this has never been tested, the pudding you refer to was never the same thing.

But lets agree to disagree. I do think however, there are security benefits and things we could learn from them.

Between my last post and now, I found this posted in another thread. Exactly what I was saying. A potential cooperation of Pakistan will always be a threat for them which they will never leave to chance our goodwill on the other side. (lol didn’t think what I said would be confirmed by Bibi):

Key word: Sunni Axis…

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[Gripen9]

I think we need to get that Farhan Jaffery chap into this thread now!

His name is NutSack Jeff!!

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

There is no credible legal document showing the British promised to ‘return’ these territories to Afghanistan after 100 years. Internationally, the Durand Line is treated as the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. Its just a talking/deflecting point among defranchised Afghans, who are have identity crises abroad.

The only way to justify your defeat and loss of territories to your own people is to create a false narrative. I have told them that the British does not have that written in a document and they said it was a verbal promise. That is what the their government has brainwashed their own people with false history.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

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[Ak01]

Between my last post and now, I found this posted in another thread. Exactly what I was saying. A potential cooperation of Pakistan will always be a threat for them which they will never leave to chance our goodwill on the other side. (lol didn’t think what I said would be confirmed by Bibi):

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But this is again, the point you're missing, is Pakistan is viewed from the "radical islamist" angle- this is a valid threat because naturally, i dont think anyone would disagree that if you gave some TTP knob a nuke, he'd point it at them. We're hostile to them, theres no denying that, heck, we have the likes of khwaja asif, who threatened israel with nuclear weapons over a bit of fake twitter news.

I completely agree, we are a threat, IN OUR CURRENT STATE.

The idea should be to change that, to shift into a lowkey security partnership, with assurances, guarantees and mechanisms to assist but also ensure eachothers security. A win win for both.