Pakistan-India Conflict 2025: News Updates and Discussion

[Psyko70]

In my understanding ,

i think he meant how the mentality of the top brass is and what blunders occurred in those wars , and how we have not achieved the best of our capabilities..

IMO every pakistani knows india is bigger and stronger force wise but we have had a good amount of fights with it havent we ? an in them did we tried our absolute hardest or did our planners prepared for things which were to come and did we learnt from those conflicts? Learning from your mistakes is good practice but learning solely from you mistakes and not looking at whole picture is not a good thing..

PAF did brilliantly in downing indian jets in may but taking that sole scenario into the next engagement would be deffo wrong from PAF right? PAF would have to do more then that and within its constraints which the PAF knows i think better then we do..

Oscar and you make great points. Totally agree.

 

[Oscar]

When you explain this way then Our military is ill performing continuously or not as it supposed to be. You and many senior members share same view I get it. With my limited intelligence and of course less knowledge then you and many senior members.

Yes in 71 and 98 and in 84 we had one of greatest defeats but now its not same as before and Pakistan is faring better. To me it is, yes you can say your opinion dont matter. But I have also spent being civilian 25 years in PDF and my views are appreciated by many so I expect that many also believe post 2000 we have had good performance. That is why I am saying mistakes of past have made us better, not up to PDF senior members expectations.

Your view is very much 1 sided and you deny the performance of Pakistan military in 19 and 25 war just because of past wars you are still believing we did nothing extraordinary this time as well. we are a poor nation with so many problems, the performance PAF gave was perfect and Pakistan military in Kashmir did great as well. with limited resources our navy did enough for India to not think about sending Indian aircraft carrier. Otherwise Indians always wet day dream of sending vikrant or vikramaditya. So my friend, a respectable senior friend for civilians like me without blind faith and over obsession I believe we did fare well enough it was a fair response if not extraordinary.

My uncles have been in army and from them I came to know we are too good in different aspects for our budget and economical size. So I have good faith.
​

I could be wrong but this is where this forum discussion comes, to make civilian people of Pakistan aware logically.

Between I am still confused why ceasefire happened in 25 May conflict ? Unfortunately no one can answer that and everyone is just speculating. Maybe then my eyes open if we are still ill prepared. Especially im worried our navy wont last barrages of ashm. Army and Air force are adequately prepared if not Well.​

It is not a 1 sided view. Assuming that now isn’t the past or that errors of the past cannot be repeated ignores both human element and assumes both that the past in May 25 will be the same in the future. In other words you are contradicting yourself by saying that the past does not dictate the future.

India is learning all the lessons it needs and has been spending its coffers in extreme urgency with coordinated consulting from Israel, French, Russian, Ukranian and US(selected freelance and official liason) to both update tactics and fill gaps for the next engagement.

Pakistan military isn’t sleeping but right now it’s also feeling the stage 1 impact of the advice given to India with the implosion of the TTA/P front and Balochistan - all wounds of its own doing which are being exploited.

Then there is the internal threat - political actors and external actors - to quote Iqbal from his address in Jerusalem - the threat from enemies is not as great as internal dissent and cohesion.

I don’t mean to downplay injustices which have and are occurring but how by having these issues the overall leadership past/present opens doors for external threats to supercharge the problems - Balochistan is a great example where it is nearly a “no turning back” scenario from a reconciliation perspective.


Then take all of these additional stresses that take both time and resources (money, human etc) to address which the state and ipso facto the military has to allocate and within that general system inefficiencies borne of both cultural and social aspects along with the reality that not every one in Pakistan is A grade no matter what position they are - they sometimes make it there.

Fixing both internal and external issues/defence is important -but that doesn’t mean you need to freeze external defense to fix internal issues or vice versa. However, that also doesn’t mean just because you suck at internal cohesion due to issues outside of the scope of this thread you should not still focus on what you are semi competent in - dont dismiss Peter to criticize Paul.

Take all of the above, then think of how all of these challenges leave MUCH MUCH less room for error for Pakistan vs India who have double digit multiples of resources and a much higher floor for improving themselves once processes align.

So the instead of interpreting what I am saying as doom and gloom - its a caution to stop the repeated luddi and focus on what comes next.
You have examples in history and Pakistan constantly lives out the example of a Uhud after Badr everytime.

Its cultural - and its time to change that.
Celebrate but not excessively.
There is a reason India is where it is due to their BhaktJob Party using this cultural characteristic.

Lets not become them otherwise that does negate the two nation theory if you cannot differentiate in character.

 

[Waz]

Roman training was "bloodless battle" and their battles were "bloody drills".

That's what Pakistan needs. No more of this BS time and choosing. These lot started to buckle when the damage started to mount. Watch their strategic analysts now talking of 'water leverage' as opposed to war which can hurt them.
However, they can and will engage in minor skirmishes to embarrass Pakistan and hold psychological weight. You need to prepare and prepare more.

 

[Oscar]

Roman training was "bloodless battle" and their battles were "bloody drills".

That's what Pakistan needs. No more of this BS time and choosing. These lot started to buckle when the damage started to amount. Watch their strategic analysts now talking of 'water leverage' as opposed to war which can hurt them.
However, they can and will engage in minor skirmishes to embarrass Pakistan and hold psychological weight. You need to prepare and prepare more.

This is potentially an impossible and illogical suggestion but Pakistan should leverage this positive energy to “announce” some additional development with nuclear capability specifically for “changing dynamics that require first strike for certain scenarios ” and tie it to to “protection of our red lines including water resources”

The right wording of it is beyond me to make it a both - here’s what happens if you don’t back down from water and tying that in with potential deal making discussions to see if Orangeman can talk to it during one of his ancillary ramblings “You know Pakistanis will do anything to protect their water supply”.

Very “wishful” and “ideal”(from a plan) concept - that I acknowledge

 

[Waz]

This is potentially an impossible and illogical suggestion but Pakistan should leverage this positive energy to “announce” some additional development with nuclear capability specifically for “changing dynamics that require first strike for certain scenarios ” and tie it to to “protection of our red lines including water resources”

The right wording of it is beyond me to make it a both - here’s what happens if you don’t back down from water and tying that in with potential deal making discussions to see if Orangeman can talk to it during one of his ancillary ramblings “You know Pakistanis will do anything to protect their water supply”.

Very “wishful” and “ideal”(from a plan) concept - that I acknowledge

No it's sound reasoning and then raises that fearsome 'what if' question.

 

[Oscar]

Btw - as I write about consultants in India I do NOT DOWNPLAY that Indians aren’t smart on their own as well. They are smart people who have similar and different issues in bringing their ideas and plans to life - but they have access to learning from their allies so they will also be smart to access it

 

[Oscar]

Oscar and you make great points. Totally agree.

Appreciated
But to be fair - yes - I do sound like many of us heard with parents or teachers

یہی چار سال محنت کے ہیں

ابھی محنت نہیں کرو گے تو بعد میں رو گے

The only thing I wont say is the following because as in a person’s life until the hereafter this is never true

ابھی محنت کرلو پھر ارام اور ایش ہیں

There is no such thing as work-life balance
You integrate the two

You can celebrate whatever you did - great the party is from 5pm to 9pm
now rest and back to the job at hand

 

[PK781]

India's new War against his own people - Manipur

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they're getting closer to imploding from within due to all this.
7 sisters states, UP and Manipur are burning, indian army under attack there. Its like a war situation......but obviously they sensor everything there but Shit has hit the fan for sure

 

[Waterboy]

Exactly , the lethargic behaviour of the indian baus is the only thing stopping them from totallly annihilating' us in a war , The way they have been planning and buying things with help of their deeper pockets is very concerning . Our gernails and Babus still think the nuclear option is the only way while not knowing what consequences it would had on the response from the enemy and the effects of a nuclear exchange .
We still have the mentality of "F16 hai na"....

In 71 , Manekshaw prepared for 9 months before the war and waited for the initiation by us in the western sector , he decided to fight in the winter and not the bengali monsoon which would have hampered the logistics and air support , some also say the cold had helped armour columns to travel the dirt of bengal better then it would have done in summers . A lot of planning was done by him while drunkerds here did not know what to do .

India inducted its 3rd SSBN and is gonna get a lot more i think , idk how the PN is gonna suffice with using the Baburs on the hangors which are all gonna eb the first targets of the IN even before the surface fleet , these should at least be getting above ground hardened PENs If underground ones cant be built/Too costly

We've been doing jackshit since 2000. Our fuckin dynastic parties can't even solve load shedding issues. 25 years and no progress in solving the energy sector issues and they made it worse by setting up IPPs and now we are perpetually fucked.

Moreover industrialist, agriculture folks, people who own grocery stores and so many others are unwilling to pay the appropriate tax. For 25 years FBR has not performed, we have not solved our basic economic structural issues, we're still patching the economy via IMF and bailouts. I don't think we can keep carrying forwards like this. There will be a time where we'll crash, there'll be extreme civil unrest and that's when india will pounce.

The unfortunate reality is for the elite babus its business as usual where they think they can keep siphoning off wealth, but they don't get it that we're economically so sluggish that eventually our defence will collapse and you wouldn't have a country, but madarchod sab bas business as usual may busy.

Like even look at right now. Yes geopolitics is important but has the military or any prime minister shows this much energy and enthusiasm to just fix the basic of economy? Chutyia saray

 

[Panzerkiel]

The mistake is taking ANY EXTREME position. Both 19 and 25 you did NOTHING Extraordinary in terms of how you planned and also made mistakes in executing your enemy just made a LOT MORE MISTAKES.

If you SOLE RELIANCE is on MISTAKES then it is the WORST POSSIBLE MENTALITY to have.
You train your pilots to fight 3 to 1 from day 1 specifically because you are expecting to be outnumbered regardless. Then you figure out what to do to enhance capabilities and tactics within those constraints AND YOU ASSUME YOU ALSO HAVE INCOMPETENCE/ERRORS regardless of how much you claim and hope to have common standards across the force.

Your Army trains for rapid blocking operations to stun enemy ops precisely because it understands the momentum constraints your much much bigger opponent has.
Yet in 71 you nearly had a 1:1 ratio in the west and you still made serious mistakes - in Kargil you got nearly wiped out due to poor execution and control of a plan - and I dont even want to talk about the disasters you have had with losses and so on against supposedly ragtag elements within your own territory only because your top was assuming "this is easy - we can take losses".

If anything the army has shown great prowess in maneuver warfare and historically better at utilizing indirect fire than India(despite having better equipment) to the extent that a few years ago when India supposedly launched massive mortar barrages a lot of them were found to be much less accurate and effective than your own responses (@Panzerkiel happy to be corrected).

Have you achieved this to the best of your capabilities? are you certain of it?
وَأَعِدُّوا لَهُمْ مَا اسْتَطَعْتُمْ مِنْ قُوَّةٍ وَمِنْ رِبَاطِ الْخَيْلِ تُرْهِبُونَ بِهِ عَدُوَّ اللَّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمْ وَآخَرِينَ مِنْ دُونِهِمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَهُمُ اللَّهُ يَعْلَمُهُمْ

اور ان کے مقابلے میں جتنی قوت اور جنگی گھوڑوں کی رباطت کے طاقت ہو سکلے کرو تاکہ اللہ کے دشمن اور تمہارے دشمن اور ان کے علاوہ دوسرے لوگوں کو ڈراؤ جن کو تم نہیں جانتے مگر اللہ ان کو جانتا ہے

If not, then don't dance in your achievement of shooting 7 planes down as proof for the next engagement

Agreed.

However, I'm sure the most sceptic members here would DEFINITELY change their opinion once the true scores and scope / damages inflicted on Indian army and air force... their air assets (both in air and on ground), IAF ground installations / nodes / bases, army HQs, army posts (along LOC, WB and IB), specialised operators (individually targeted because they were doing something fishy of course, were identified and effectively targeted), C2 nodes.... are brought to light. Since the conflict has not ended yet, therefore a detailed analysis cannot be given due to reasons of security of course.

 

[Panzerkiel]

When you explain this way then Our military is ill performing continuously or not as it supposed to be. You and many senior members share same view I get it. With my limited intelligence and of course less knowledge then you and many senior members.

Yes in 71 and 98 and in 84 we had one of greatest defeats but now its not same as before and Pakistan is faring better. To me it is, yes you can say your opinion dont matter. But I have also spent being civilian 25 years in PDF and my views are appreciated by many so I expect that many also believe post 2000 we have had good performance. That is why I am saying mistakes of past have made us better, not up to PDF senior members expectations.

Your view is very much 1 sided and you deny the performance of Pakistan military in 19 and 25 war just because of past wars you are still believing we did nothing extraordinary this time as well. we are a poor nation with so many problems, the performance PAF gave was perfect and Pakistan military in Kashmir did great as well. with limited resources our navy did enough for India to not think about sending Indian aircraft carrier. Otherwise Indians always wet day dream of sending vikrant or vikramaditya. So my friend, a respectable senior friend for civilians like me without blind faith and over obsession I believe we did fare well enough it was a fair response if not extraordinary.

My uncles have been in army and from them I came to know we are too good in different aspects for our budget and economical size. So I have good faith.
​

I could be wrong but this is where this forum discussion comes, to make civilian people of Pakistan aware logically.

Between I am still confused why ceasefire happened in 25 May conflict ? Unfortunately no one can answer that and everyone is just speculating. Maybe then my eyes open if we are still ill prepared. Especially im worried our navy wont last barrages of ashm. Army and Air force are adequately prepared if not Well.​

We as an organisation and as a country suck at laying out our achievements... That too right after any conflict. Since we don't do that, it gives space to our detractors for filing it with their own agenda.... Otherwise, 71, 84, 98...they still have achievements which no one talks about yet....

 

[HRK]

We as an organisation and as a country suck at laying out our achievements... That too right after any conflict. Since we don't do that, it gives space to our detractors for filing it with their own agenda.... Otherwise, 71, 84, 98...they still have achievements which no one talks about yet....

The issue is we as State do not have policy of releasing the historical files and records like USA has ....

I mean releasing official record after 40 or 50 years would not be harmful to state or it's institutions and may also straight the record for many historical inaccuracies

 

[Psyko70]

We as an organisation and as a country suck at laying out our achievements... That too right after any conflict. Since we don't do that, it gives space to our detractors for filing it with their own agenda.... Otherwise, 71, 84, 98...they still have achievements which no one talks about yet....

Why should pakistan tell sir when danger is not yet curtailed. Claiming captures and then when danger comes back and taken back will be insult. When its done the we will tell the world InshaAllah. All the satellite footages are neglected here in pdf as if they claim its lie. But we did well in my books. Yes we need to do better as oscar and kimjongun said.

Details:
- 5 km inside India in from the Narowal sector
- 3 km in from Sialkot sector
- 2 km in from Sheikhupura sector
- 4 km in from Bhawalpur sector

On the LoC:
5-7 km inside
- Haji Pir
- Nakiyal
- Dowar Tiger Sector
- Poonch
- Kupwara Sector
- Khoi Ratta Sector

This was shared in forum. Thing is no indian claim to say its false.

 

[Panzerkiel]

Why should pakistan tell sir when danger is not yet curtailed. Claiming captures and then when danger comes back and taken back will be insult. When its done the we will tell the world InshaAllah. All the satellite footages are neglected here in pdf as if they claim its lie. But we did well in my books. Yes we need to do better as oscar and kimjongun said.

Details:
- 5 km inside India in from the Narowal sector
- 3 km in from Sialkot sector
- 2 km in from Sheikhupura sector
- 4 km in from Bhawalpur sector

On the LoC:
5-7 km inside
- Haji Pir
- Nakiyal
- Dowar Tiger Sector
- Poonch
- Kupwara Sector
- Khoi Ratta Sector

This was shared in forum. Thing is no indian claim to say its false.

Exactly.
Moreover, our long range vectors did go deeper towards east... Along a north south line running through New Delhi.

 

[Psyko70]

Exactly.
Moreover, our long range vectors did go deeper towards east... Along a north south line running through New Delhi.

True. Criticism is fine here in PDF. I have firm belief there are good points raised here and this will make military even more strong as they read from PDF.