TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[Merzifonlu]

You think the US would punish them or something over an engine certification?

Yes, IMO, USA will punish Germany. Because this move would lead to both significant commercial and strategic losses for the USA. Germany is the country where they are most influential in continental Europe. They aren't even that influential over the UK.

Normally, they wouldn't care much, but now that they are in such a tight spot, they cannot tolerate even the slightest loss of market share. Because developing military turbofan engines is so difficult, who will buy these engines is also becoming a big political issue.

The F-404 selection was technically the correct choice. I have no objection to that. However, USA's policy-makers is making very irrational decisions these days. This situation should have been foreseen, and plans for Hürjet aircraft, at least in a 2 x TF-10000 configuration, should have been prepared.

 

[hyperman]

This situation should have been foreseen, and plans for Hürjet aircraft, at least in a 2 x TF-10000 configuration, should have been prepared.

By the time the time the F-35 issue became apparent, they had already decided on a single engine configuration and double engine for the KAAN. They would have had to throw out the whole design and design something like the M-346 or Yak-130, that redesign would take a couple years extra time, but even then you have engine issues, b/c even till this day, there is no TF10000 ready. Which means they would have had to get an engine off the market, and the only ones producing the engine in this class are the US with the F125 and Ukraine with the AL-322, with the F125, its the same potential issue with the F404, and with the AL-322, you are using a Non NATO soviet esque powerplant, but even that, we don't know that the Ukraine war is coming up in 2022. And again we have a risk to engine supply down the road.

So really there is no fool proof option that doesn't carry a risk.

Add to that the M-346 style trainer is not as good as a single engine F404 style fighter, one large engine fighter is usually more efficient than two weaker engined fighter, single engine fighter design is also more adaptable, and can be ported into a Lead in/Light Fighter with a stronger engine like the F414, this option is not available with a Al-322 fighter, if you get the engine at all, given that we eventually had the Ukraine Russia war.

Yes, IMO, USA will punish Germany. Because this move would lead to both significant commercial and strategic losses for the USA.

But by that logic, it should affect germans in other places, why allow them to build the Tornado? force them to buy F-16, why allow Eurofighter in the first place, why allow A-400, force a C-130 or C-17 sale. Why allow airbus to be formed, force them to buy Boeing.

I don't think a single engine variant of the EJ200 would force any retaliation, its not even a german only project, as 4 different countries are involved in the production, and and backlash would target them all.

Its just that none of them had a need for it. They did end up developing a Single engine prototype with Thrust vectoring for the HAL Tejas and tried to pitch it to India, but India went with the F404 and F414 respectively, especially after the US agreed to tech transfer for local production of the F414 in India.

 

[hyperman]

F404 sales have been approved for Spain.

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[Ali_Baba]

F404 sales have been approved for Spain.

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Will this programme face the same supply issues the Indians have been facing with their 404 and 414 deliveries?

 

[hyperman]

Will this programme face the same supply issues the Indians have been facing with their 404 and 414 deliveries?

I heard the GE supply issues have been fixed.

Turkey received its F404s for the prototypes on time.

regardless, the Tejas matter I think those delays, many of them have been b/c of the Indians themselves.

 

[MMM-E]

The new image of KAAN's domestically produced Engine, TF-35000


nozzle design updated
At the rear (nozzle and afterburner area), there are more refined adjustments, likely aimed at lowering the radar signature and improving supercruise performance.


2025



2026

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[xbat]

KAAN under heavy load

 

[MMM-E]

The Turkish developer of the stealth material for F-35 and B-2 Aircraft confirmed his work on KAAN.

Ergün Kırlıkovalı: “We are working with TUSAŞ on a new material for KAAN.”

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[MMM-E]

TEI General Manager Mahmut Faruk Akşit:


"Our work on the TF35000 engine continues with third-generation crystal blade technology.

KAAN's engine has reached the CDR (Critical Desing Review) stage, the final critical phase before operation and flight.

There are only two companies in the world that can process aircraft engine turbine blades using the additive manufacturing nickel superalloy method: GE and TEI."

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[HH-9A]

So it seems currently Turkey almost finalised the core engine paper design for TF35000 engine, but the core engine prototype has yet to be built and “ fire up” for verification tests. For comparison, China “fired up” the prototype of core engine designed for WS15 turbo engine ( Chinese equivalent to F119, currently powering J20A stealth fighter) in 2005, and more than 20 years later, the WS15 turbofan engine is matured for field deployment, and in mass production.

 

[PakAl]

So it seems currently Turkey almost finalised the core engine paper design for TF35000 engine, but the core engine prototype has yet to be built and “ fire up” for verification tests. For comparison, China “fired up” the prototype of core engine designed for WS15 turbo engine ( Chinese equivalent to F119, currently powering J20A stealth fighter) in 2005, and more than 20 years later, the WS15 turbofan engine is matured for field deployment, and in mass production.

China didn't have much experience in engine development but Turkey has been working on engine technology/parts for decades, being part of Nato. They may also get some help from European allies since Turkey is not under sanctions like China. It took China 20 years, a long time but Turkey should be able to do it in 10 years time, depending how advance they are in terms of technology/development.

Turkey already developed TF6000 Engine
TF10000 nearly developed
TF35000 design is already done, but with Turkish experience they will be able to complete it in 10 years time.

 

[HH-9A]

China didn't have much experience in engine development but Turkey has been working on engine technology/parts for decades, being part of Nato. They may also get some help from European allies since Turkey is not under sanctions like China. It took China 20 years, a long time but Turkey should be able to do it in 10 years time, depending how advance they are in terms of technology/development.

Turkey already developed TF6000 Engine
TF10000 nearly developed
TF35000 design is already done, but with Turkish experience they will be able to complete it in 10 years time.

That’s a fat claim I ever heard for a while. Before WS15, China already massively deployed f110 equivalent WS10 engines that are powering >1000 fighters, including single engine fighters such as J10CP. No country other than US matches this. For comparison, Current KAAN relies on F110-129 which is banned by US for supply, meaning Turkey even lacks of any experience in producing last generation F110 grade big thrust engine, let alone more advanced f119 class. One must learn walk before run.

Furthermore, China’s industry infrastructures including metallurgical industries and manufacturing capacity are much more advanced and sizable in general.

Despite all the experience gained from WS10 development and advanced industry capabilities and way larger economies, it still took China 20 years to develop and mature ws15 TWR 10 grade big thrust engine beating F119.

 

[HH-9A]

certainly there’s no reference value to compare the WS10 engine with 29000 ibf thrust, which is installed over a thousand fighters in combat readiness, to a 10000 ibf thrust grade engine which has yet to power any flying aircraft.

Thus, a country in development of a small thrust engine cannot claim it is more experienced than a major power having developed full spectrum of advanced, deployed turbo fan engines such as WS15 for J20A, WS10 for J10, J11B, J15, J16, and WS21, WS19 for J35, WS20 for Y20B lifters …

 

[hyperman]

That’s a fat claim I ever heard for a while. Before WS15, China already massively deployed f110 equivalent WS10 engines that are powering >1000 fighters, including single engine fighters such as J10CP. No country other than US matches this. For comparison, Current KAAN replying on F110-129 which is banned by US for supply, meaning Turkey even lacks of any experience in producing last generation F110 grade big thrust engine, let alone more advanced f119 class. One must learn walk before run.

Furthermore, China’s industry infrastructures including metallurgical industries and manufacturing capacity are much more advanced and sizable in general.

Despite all the experience gained from WS10 development and advanced industry capabilities and way larger economies, it still took China 20 years to develop and mature ws15 TWR 10 grade big thrust engine beating F119.

China was building everything from Scratch, Turkey is not starting from scratch. Turkey was license producing the GE-F110 in Turkey. And Turkey build components for many current commercial GE engines.

 

[HH-9A]

China was building everything from Scratch, Turkey is not starting from scratch. Turkey was license producing the GE-F110 in Turkey. And Turkey build components for many current commercial GE engines.

What matters to develop a TWR10 big thrust engine ( not the TWR 6 small thrust TF6000 ) is your ability to produce components such as single crystal blade, Blisks, HPC, FADEC etc, not the assembly of CKDs. If you believe Turkey is more experienced because they know how to assemble CKDs, then there’s no value to continue the discussion, believe what you would like to believe