TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[MMM-E]

I lined it up

View attachment 180808

I transformed it into its realistic appearance.
KAAN's wingline is straight.


F-22 : USA
excellent stealth capability
AN/APG-77(V)1 AESA Radar ( GaAs ) 200+ km against 1 m2 targets
AN/ALR-94 Electronic Warfare System
HUD ( NO HMDS )
Supercruise
It integrates an Infrared Defensive System (IRDS)
NO EOTS


KAAN : TURKIYE
5th gen stealth capability with the TF-35.000 Engine
Supercruise capability with the TF-35.000 Engine
MURAD 600-A AESA Radar ( GaaN ) 200 km against 1 m2 targets
360° situational awareness
Artificial Intelligence Co-pilot
FEWS Electronic Warfare System
HMDS
TOYGUN EOTS
KARAT IRST
MUM-T capability with the ANKA-3 and KIZILELMA

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

A visual comparison of KAAN and the F-22 Raptor , which the US has not sold to any other Country.
View attachment 180794
View attachment 180793

Pretty amazing that Turkey is able to match the F-22 Raptor on a Physical Structure level , and they also have some potent Missiles and Air to Ground Target pods.

Quite impressive Engineering work

The engine can be an issue , as it has a external supplier
But so far this plane looks quite promising for Turkey

The performance aspect of course will be different , but still it looks quite good


Few Tech additions like HMDS and Companion AI Plane are interesting concept

 

[hyperman]

I'm glad someone finally asked the question about the Hurjet engine and a potential embargo.

F404 engine stock piling should start. Put in orders for F404 engines for the amount of initial production that Turkey will need for itself.

We have no idea what the next 5-10 years will look like, before the TF35000 is ready and when potentially an F404/414 class engine can be built from reusing the same technology.

I looked at the alternatives, and in terms of quality and realistic possibility, there aren't too many options to replace the F404. Namely b/c of politics and because many are not as good as the F404 or weren't designed for single engine configurations or their tech is lesser than the F404/F414

EJ200 is probably the closest equivalent. And the most realistic replacement both in terms of performance and the NATO ecosystem.

Snecma M88 the French will likely not export to Turkey, and I don't think Turkey will ask, its also underpowered compared to the EJ200 and F414 and even the F404.

The South Koreans are building an engine for the KF-21 that would fit in this category, but their project is currently on a timeline that is likely going to arrive in the 2030s and Turkey would likely have the TF35000 before the Koreans, and at that point, it makes more sense to wait a few more years and build a Turkish equivalent based on the tech from the TF35000 rather than buy a engine IMO.

After these two then the only other Alternatives are Russia and China with the RD-93 and WS-13/21/19 respectively. The RD-93 is a worse engine and the WS-21 and WS-19 have never been used in a single engine design to my knowledge.

The most sensible option for Turkey seems to be to stockpile F404 engine as many as possible, and strictly for its own use. Spain will likely face less export issues for the F404, and they can procure the F404 for themselves and do the integration of the F404 to the Hurjet in Spain.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Demiroğlu is talking nonsense. He can't bring himself to say, "Choosing the GE F404 engine for the Hürjet was a huge mistake."

 

[hyperman]

Demiroğlu is talking nonsense. He can't bring himself to say, "Choosing the GE F404 engine for the Hürjet was a huge mistake."

What engine would you have chosen?

 

[hodor]

Demiroğlu is talking nonsense. He can't bring himself to say, "Choosing the GE F404 engine for the Hürjet was a huge mistake."

USA will of course supply the engines to Spain. There’s no chance of any issue on that matter

 

[Merzifonlu]

USA will of course supply the engines to Spain.

We'll see. I don't think they'll sell F404 engine for Spain. The Europeans need to certify the EJ-200/230 engine for single-use applications for Hürjet. But IMO, they don't have the "balls" to do that. Especially Germany.

 

[hyperman]

We'll see. I don't think they'll sell F404 engine for Spain. The Europeans need to certify the EJ-200/230 engine for single-use applications for Hürjet. But IMO, they don't have the "balls" to do that. Especially Germany.

Germans would never buy Hurjet, they are too proud to buy Akinci or TB2 despite not having UAVs and wasting money with the Eurodrone project going nowhere, buying drones from Israel, and have contempt for Turks until they need Turks to go die fighting for them against Russia.

 

[JamD]

Demiroğlu is talking nonsense. He can't bring himself to say, "Choosing the GE F404 engine for the Hürjet was a huge mistake."

He used to be the head of helicopter division so I doubt he had anything to do with that decision but is forced to defend it. You would need to ask Atilla Dogan about the Hurjet.

 

[hyperman]

He used to be the head of helicopter division so I doubt he had anything to do with that decision but is forced to defend it. You would need to ask Atilla Dogan about the Hurjet.

I'm trying to understand why people think the F404 was a bad decision?

What other engine did people want to use for the Hurjet? Its the only engine off the shelf available for single engine trainer designs that are NATO spec.

The EJ200 does not have a single engine variant and optimizations would be needed to get a variant ready for a Single Engine design. Regardless, when the engine procurement was going on, Relations with Germany were bad, while people were looking at the US as some reliable and trustworthy partner, who would never embargo Turkey, while Germans were attacking Turkey over the Russian plane shot down incident, supporting the PKK, the Patriot batteries being withdrawn, and the Altay engine embargoes, who in that atmosphere would have chosen the EJ200 over the F404. Not to mention that the F404 was cheaper and GE, which TEI has a relationship with. In that environment people were more wary over German sabotage than US sabotage.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Germans would never buy Hurjet, they are too proud to buy Akinci or TB2 despite not having UAVs and wasting money with the Eurodrone project going nowhere, buying drones from Israel, and have contempt for Turks until they need Turks to go die fighting for them against Russia.

I didn't mean Germany would buy the Hürjet. I meant that Germany doesn't even have enough "balls" to certify the EJ-200. That's what I meant.

I also know that Germany won't buy weapons from us. Their twisted mentality wouldn't allow it. Besides, at this rate, we'd lose our appetite to sell them weapons too.

 

[JamD]

I'm trying to understand why people think the F404 was a bad decision?

What other engine did people want to use for the Hurjet? Its the only engine off the shelf available for single engine trainer designs that are NATO spec.

The EJ200 does not have a single engine variant and optimizations would be needed to get a variant ready for a Single Engine design. Regardless, when the engine procurement was going on, Relations with Germany were bad, while people were looking at the US as some reliable and trustworthy partner, who would never embargo Turkey, while Germans were attacking Turkey over the Russian plane shot down incident, supporting the PKK, the Patriot batteries being withdrawn, and the Altay engine embargoes, who in that atmosphere would have chosen the EJ200 over the F404. Not to mention that the F404 was cheaper and GE, which TEI has a relationship with. In that environment people were more wary over German sabotage than US sabotage.

I actually think it was the right choice, especially at the time, but even now.

 

[hyperman]

I meant that Germany doesn't even have enough "balls" to certify the EJ-200. That's what I meant.

I don't understand, what would the balls be about? You think the US would punish them or something over an engine certification?

No one has bothered to certify it for single engine use is b/c none of the Europeans have a single engine project that needs the EJ200, they offered it to India in a single engine configuration for the Tejas, but India went with the F404/F414 b/c it was cheaper and more well developed and in use.

 

[hyperman]

I actually think it was the right choice, especially at the time, but even now.

I'm of the same feeling. There is no choice that is absolute risk free, you make the best decision you can at the time.

Even the current KAAN design based on the F110 engine is a pivot.

The original design was more akin to the T-50 and KF-21 design choice South Korea went with. Where the Trainer would be single engined, and the fighter would be a 2 engine aircraft and both use the same engine. So only 1 engine would need to be developed.

But Turkey was forced to pivot to the F110, after the F-35 embargo. And b/c the F110 was an engine Turkey was intimately familiar with having license produced it in Turkey. Initially they were looking at the EJ200 to power it, but When the choice was made to go with the F110, and with a dual engine configuration, we ended up with the TF3500.

In hindsight, I think this is a better aircraft than a medium sized fighter based on the EJ200 would have been(more power for payload capacity and more power for future avionics and subsystems, especially with the upcoming system of systems and CCA doctrines). So I think it worked out better for Turkey, even though the Hurjet technically ended up in a more tricky situation with regards to a domestic engine likely being further down the road.

 

[retaxis]

Engine is def massive underated issue. Tejas got 5 engines a year from america and crashed 3 of them in one year. Turkey doesn't have any other options right now but American regime will definitely not allow a 'competitor' on the market (for sale) especially using their own engines.