Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

[r3alist]

The distance roughly between mohenjo daro to.....

Chennai is equivalent to roughly the distance from Paris to Istanbul

Mumbai is roughly equivalent to paris to prague

Karela is roughly equivalent to Brussels to Athens

None of these European places claim one another's history because it makes no sense, linguistically, culturally and genetically


Do you see how silly it starts to look how contemporary India can just snatch the IVC as if they have any real connection, especially how stratified the subcontinent has been historically.

@Master Chief @hussain0216 @Distant_Observer

 

[hussain0216]

The distance roughly between mohenjo daro to.....

Chennai is equivalent to roughly the distance from Paris to Istanbul

Mumbai is roughly equivalent to paris to prague

Karela is roughly equivalent to Brussels to Athens

None of these European places claim one another's history because it makes no sense, linguistically, culturally and genetically


Do you see how silly it starts to look how contemporary India can just snatch the IVC as if they have any real connection, especially how stratified the subcontinent has been historically.

@Master Chief @hussain0216 @Distant_Observer

India valley was centered around what is today Pakistan and it only expanded outwards to other places

The vast majority of Indians or India has nothing to do with the indus valley people and civilisation

Having these horrible kala Hindus from the east try to connect to our land and people is deeply revolting

 

[r3alist]

India valley was centered around what is today Pakistan and it only expanded outwards to other places

The vast majority of Indians or India has nothing to do with the indus valley people and civilisation

Having these horrible kala Hindus from the east try to connect to our land and people is deeply revolting

I think contemporary communal politics entering this discussion is a terrible reflection on India

You can't insist on a version of history which comes from your feels and not eventually get push back.

However that being said, Indians are far more aggressive in claiming heritage maybe naturally as they see this as an extension of their purported standing in history.

Even the most hardline Iranian shias have no issue with their vast history and in fact use it as well.

 

[Master Chief]

I don't think any country as of yet can claim or should claim the IVC, the most toxic element of this discussion which should just be historical inquiry is a communal aspect that anything Hindu is contemporary India and even let's say bjp or RSS.

But these guys need to be ridiculed and sidelined from the discussion, we cannot let historical inquiry become polluted just because some people believe history is frozen in time and does not progress.


But this is being slowly eroded away

There is of course a tricky and ironic situation where these texts might have their origins in current day Pakistan.

And therefore then Pakistan can claim them as part of it s territorial heritage.

Absolutely correct.

The Indian Hindu has brainwashed himself into believing anything remotely polytheistic in nature anywhere within the subcontinent somehow "belongs" to Delhi. Pakistan should vigorously claim any legacy artefacts that had arisen from our ancient territories. Only the Islamic Republic of Pakistan can and should safeguard such an important legacy for mankind's benefit. This is the truth that irks Indian Hindus the most. Laughable attempts at attention seeking by @Vikramaditya1 bhai on this very thread should indeed be summarily dismissed - as if "we have oldest and largest site saar!" means anything whatsoever in the legal context of legacy ownership.

Indians can apply for a tourist visa to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan if they wish to pay their respects to the civiisation of their beef-eating ancestors.

 

[r3alist]

Absolutely correct.

The Indian Hindu has brainwashed himself into believing anything remotely polytheistic in nature anywhere within the subcontinent somehow "belongs" to Delhi. Pakistan should vigorously claim any legacy artefacts that had arisen from our ancient territories. Only the Islamic Republic of Pakistan can and should safeguard such an important legacy for mankind's benefit. This is the truth that irks Indian Hindus the most. Laughable attempts at attention seeking by @Vikramaditya1 bhai on this very thread should indeed be summarily dismissed - as if "we have oldest and largest site saar!" means anything whatsoever in the legal context of legacy ownership.

Indians can apply for a tourist visa to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan if they wish to pay their respects to the civiisation of their beef-eating ancestors.

View attachment 197170

In exactly the same way contemporary India has all manner of different groups and variations in worship across different regions it then stands to reason that people who were once in modern day Pakistan had their own variations of their own religious practices whatever they were.

Just because there are some texts or some relics common does not imply uniformity or even grouping. Much like current day India a Hindu in one region could be incompatible with a Hindu in another region.



You can literally use the logic of Indians in their own words.

So apparently some regions which happened to be around Pakistan buried their deceased, and ate meat, it is tempting to say they were always on the path to diverge over the course of history.

So even as Hindu themed ancient peoples the Pakistani side might have always had its own differences, just like the prior pagans in Chechnya would worship differently to pagans In Scandinavia, because they were different tribes!

History can be so illuminating!


Meanwhile.....

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[Master Chief]

In exactly the same way contemporary India has all manner of different groups and variations in worship across different regions it then stands to reason that people who were once in modern day Pakistan had their own variations of their own religious practices whatever they were.

Just because there are some texts or some relics common does not imply uniformity or even grouping. Much like current day India a Hindu in one region could be incompatible with a Hindu in another region.



You can literally use the logic of Indians in their own words.

So apparently some regions which happened to be around Pakistan buried their deceased, and ate meat, it is tempting to say they were always on the path to diverge over the course of history.

So even as Hindu themed ancient peoples the Pakistani side might have always had its own differences, just like the prior pagans in Chechnya would worship differently to pagans In Scandinavia, because they were different tribes!

History can be so illuminating!


Meanwhile.....

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It links in similarly to the matter of Mughal artefacts.

Pakistan does not sit around "cursing" or "rejecting" its pre-Islamic history as some "age of darkness".

Contrarily, India openly curses and rejects the Mughal era as a "dark age" and Indian commentators like the esteemed clown patrol in this very forum will declare how overjoyed they are at the erasure of Mughal studies in their own syllabi, yet in the same breath, demand "reparations" from Britain for looted Mughal artefacts.

India history debate after chapter on Mughals dropped

A chapter on the workings of Mughal courts has been deleted from high school textbooks

www.bbc.co.uk

The contradiction is laughable. The solution is simple. If India doesn't want its Mughal heritage, we will look after it, including its looted treasures wherever in the world they may currently be.

 

[r3alist]

Pakistan does not sit around "cursing" or "rejecting" its pre-Islamic history as some "age of darkness".

Indians are dragging Pakistanis into their own communal historical chip on shoulder mindset.


The obsession with claiming ancient history with no basis is actually a uniquely Indian feature which I see no other nation really do

I think it's important to be mindful of this because if you get dragged into the mud everyone gets dirty

Contrary to relative civilizations it is not a flex to not change or adapt over the course of history.

The Chinese have confidently done this in contemporary times, the Japanese, and the Iranians have done this about five times in their history. In fact who has not? Whoever has not are in fact India's comparator group.

Fantasizing about a nebulously defined history that is never changing yet spuriously defined is not an asset,it's a liability.

As the IVC and indeed broader and deeper history unravels I think Pakistan should not define it as contrary to India but just what the historical record was because that will be more powerful and doesn't open you up to embarrassment

 

[Ali_Baba]

If you ask most people about the Indus Valley Civilization, they tend to naturally associate it with Pakistan and not India.

This was originally led academically, and now is present in the wider ecosystem and there is nothing India, or Indians can do try and reverse that to claim "heritage rights". That ship has sailed.

Indians can fret all there want, but there would be more productive use of their time elsewhere.

I guess, fundamentally it is because India is a creation of the English, that they seek to try and acquire other peoples heritage to give the pretense that they are some long standing country like China which they are not. Prior to the English occupation and creation of India, there were some 50 odd independent countries in South Asia.

 

[r3alist]

that they seek to try and acquire other peoples heritage to give the pretense that they are some long standing country like China which they are not. Prior to the English occupation and creation of India, there were some 50 odd independent countries in South Asia.

But this is still something Pakistan has to address.

Just look at laser eyes below

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If you keep saying it enough without challenge then to most people it just becomes an accepted truth.

In the context of the IVC the Indians have taken a line that purported shared religion equates to nationhood.

Can you believe it?


Of course that logic does not apply to current Pakistan, but it applies 4,000 years ago to a civilization discovered by the British about a century ago

All jokes aside, you have to accept they have been far more aggressive and opportunistic in narrative building creating a type of artificial prestige from nowhere.

That leverages into contemporary and modern diplomacy!

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Laughable attempts at attention seeking by @Vikramaditya1 bhai on this very thread should indeed be summarily dismissed - as if "we have oldest and largest site saar!" means anything whatsoever

It means it began in India as far as evidence is concerned. Most of India's sites are unexplored because these centers are populated. Latest site of IVC was found in Sinauli in Uttar Pradesh. Burial sites from 1800 BCE Cooper plated wooden coffins, daggers, shields and all.

Pakistan has 250+ million people simply because British build those irrigation canals. It was historically a sparsely populated arid land, most of the population centers were East of Sindhu. Today's Pakistan in total had some 6 million people before British came.

 

[Master Chief]

It means it began in India as far as evidence is concerned. Most of India's sites are unexplored because these centers are populated. Latest site of IVC was found in Sinauli in Uttar Pradesh. Burial sites from 1800 BCE Cooper plated wooden coffins, daggers, shields and all.

Pakistan has 250+ million people simply because British build those irrigation canals. It was historically a sparsely populated arid land, most of the population centers were East of Sindhu. Today's Pakistan in total had some 6 million people before British came.

It means no such thing. There is no actual evidence that all these sites are necessarily of the same IVC. You have chosen to indulge in idle hindutva conjecture. There are ancient cities older than Harappa even in Pakistan, let alone in Hindustan (e.g. Mehrgahr), which may well be precursor civilisations of the IVC. You have hard genetic evidence of just ONE site (Rakhigiri) being genetically related to Pakistani Harappan civilisation, specifically postulated that migrants went from the Pakistani sites to Rakhigiri.

 

[nahtanbob]

The distance roughly between mohenjo daro to.....

Chennai is equivalent to roughly the distance from Paris to Istanbul

Mumbai is roughly equivalent to paris to prague

Karela is roughly equivalent to Brussels to Athens

None of these European places claim one another's history because it makes no sense, linguistically, culturally and genetically


Do you see how silly it starts to look how contemporary India can just snatch the IVC as if they have any real connection, especially how stratified the subcontinent has been historically.

@Master Chief @hussain0216 @Distant_Observer

The Indus river is generally associated with Pakistan.

Indus Valley civilization is an extinct one.

India associates more with its pre-Islamic past than Pakistan. Pakistan associates with the Islamic past more than India.

 

[nahtanbob]

But this is still something Pakistan has to address.

Just look at laser eyes below

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If you keep saying it enough without challenge then to most people it just becomes an accepted truth.

In the context of the IVC the Indians have taken a line that purported shared religion equates to nationhood.

Can you believe it?


Of course that logic does not apply to current Pakistan, but it applies 4,000 years ago to a civilization discovered by the British about a century ago

All jokes aside, you have to accept they have been far more aggressive and opportunistic in narrative building creating a type of artificial prestige from nowhere.

That leverages into contemporary and modern diplomacy!

As far as IVC goes, there are no pyramids, no Rosetta stones here

 

[Ali_Baba]

The Indus river is generally associated with Pakistan.

Indus Valley civilization is an extinct one.

India associates more with its pre-Islamic past than Pakistan. Pakistan associates with the Islamic past more than India.

Pakistan recognizes its full history......

 

[r3alist]

It means it began in India as far as evidence is concerned. Most of India's sites are unexplored because these centers are populated. Latest site of IVC was found in Sinauli in Uttar Pradesh. Burial sites from 1800 BCE Cooper plated wooden coffins, daggers, shields and all.

Pakistan has 250+ million people simply because British build those irrigation canals. It was historically a sparsely populated arid land, most of the population centers were East of Sindhu. Today's Pakistan in total had some 6 million people before British came.

What is your factual basis for this

Unless you being in prehistoric times less people existed?