Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

[r3alist]

and collecting jizya isn't such a great achievement

This was a service to protect you guys from any hostility, and what's so objectionable about paying a tax, in the context of the era of empires.

It is such a strange aspect to still get upset about, the system made violence the provision of the state which is a civilized way to be.

don't even know what exactly the Mughals achieved for us

Why is it that Hindus most prosper in Christian or Muslim lands, to this day. You guys tremendously benefit by using universalist values against universalist religions

Give ten scientific or cultural achievement of Mughals

There are too many to mention but by this logic why is the Taj Mahal your most prestigious and globally recognized icon.

 

[r3alist]

The majority of Muslim jurists required adult, free, sane males among the dhimma community to pay the jizya,[12] while exempting women, children, elders, handicapped, the ill, the insane, monks, hermits, slaves,[13][14][15][16][17] and musta'mins—non-Muslim foreigners who only temporarily reside in Muslim lands.[13][4] However, Ibn Hazm required that anyone who had reached puberty pay jizya.[18] Islamic Regimes allowed dhimmis to serve in Muslim armies. Those who chose to join military service were also exempted from payment;[2][14][19][20][21][22] some Muslim scholars claim that some Islamic rulers exempted those who could not afford to pay from the Jizya.[14][23][24]

 

[Master Chief]

Why are you obsessed with Mughals. I don't even know what exactly the Mughals achieved for us. Expanding empire and building some roads is not really pinnacle of empire and collecting jizya isn't such a great achievement. Neither is sending gifts to Macca or Persians because Mughals used to we wuzzed Persiana (when they weren't).

Give ten scientific or cultural achievement of Mughals. Comparable to Ashoka from 300BCE. Both of them ruled around similar geography Ashoka is called "The great" the Mughals are mocked. Not to mention all Mughals were ghay, and had a bachabazi problem. Such a perverted empire, something I wouldn't be proud of having.

At least not for long.

Indian artisens were indeed great. They did great work in building structures. One should wonder why the so called inheritors of Mughal Empire didn't build anything anymore but these dharmics are still making those dope buildings around the world.

Dharmics did eventually route the Mughals yeah? The Mughals became a suzerainty of the Marathas. Only after the anglo Maratha war Marathas transferred Mughal ownership to the British who since owned them.

I could say the same, you can't really disprove my original point. Oldest and largest sites are in India and more sites are being excavated. Your inability, or should I say your archeology departments inability to excavate more is not on us, it's on you. What's the point of trying to insert some non IVC sites when you can simply take a chisel, brush and dig.

Why do you talk such relentless and unsubstantiated garbage repeatedly?

Let's start with the Mughals, since they bug you so much but Ashoka's genocides are entirely forgivable for "spreading indic culture" as you yourself implied. Indeed, we know why "Mughals are mocked" as you put it so aptly.

And shameless as you are, you stick to your "200 years" claim despite having the opportunity to correct yourself. The islamic empire of the Delhi Sultanate was defeated by Babur in 1526. The abrahamic British deposed the last Mughal emperor in 1857. That's not 200 years.

We have been over the decline of the Mughals many times. Mughals fought other Muslims and Christian British to exhaustion. Indeed, the British had been fighting the Mughals for 80 years before Marathas had the courage to pick up a sword. Hindus turned up when that exhaustion was nearly complete. The British themselves defeated and deposed the last of the Mughals, and then defeated your precious Marathas without too much trouble. I don't know where you get your historical knowledge from but it is truly saffronised beyond recourse.

It is abundantly clear that Abrahamics controlled the subcontinent while Dharmics stood and watched diligently.

Whether you like it or not, Mehrgarh's script is a precursor of IVC script. This is well established through excavation of tablets, seals, and amulets that are inscribed with formulaic markings that are regarded as the root of Harappan script. Pakistani archaeologists have themselves excavated extensively at Mehrgahr, despite your apparent disbelief at this reality. Who on earth do you think was excavating there? Did you think Indians had 5 year archaeology visas to come and do it? These artefacts from Mehrgahr are in Lahore Museum:





Notice the swastikas, similar to those found in Harappa.

No amount of carbon dating will change the realties of the regional movement of people, ideas, ideologies, and language.

In any case, I have already explained the similarities of even the archaeological carbon dating of artefacts from both Mehrgahr and Bhiranna (hardly a 500 year gap, which is insignificant in the context of civilisational development!). Beyond this, some authors literally argue that Mehrgahr's inhabitants themselves moved to Harappa to establish the IVC when Mehrgahr became too arid.

What will you tell us now, that Harappans moved from Bhiranna to Harappa and finally to Mehrgahr, where they dumbed down their own language and technology as a deliberate act of regression??

What is actually wrong with your race that you refuse to accept Pakistani (and before us, Zagrosian) origins for your species? Are Englishmen "offended" that they are mostly actually Germanic?

Staying on this topic, in a more general sense, both genetic (as explained to you ad nauseam, the Iranian Farmers were a distinct genomic group emerging from the Zagros region) and medical evidence implies an eastward flow of genes (genetic lactose intolerance traits irrefutably flowed from Iran into the subcontinent).

Finally, as for "10 mughal advancements saaar!", you know as well as I do that Ashoka did nothing but bathe in blood, destroy stupas and then fight with his own siblings. He contributed nothing to the subcontinent's academia and arts, literally nothing. Apparently, his supposed apology for being a barbarian is his greatest redeeming quality and the sole reason that he is worshipped by na-like logo across the region. Don't make me laugh, "10 advancements saar". The fields of astronomy, metallurgy, medicine, arts, literature, poetry, navigation....it goes on and on. I'm happy to look up and post specific names of innovations and academic works if you wish but you and i both know already there is no comparison.

 

[hussain0216]

Rome is in Italy
The Roman empire started in Rome, Italy and spread over much of Europe and the Mediterranean


If 2026 years later

We have people in Romania declare that because their country is called Rome-ania and they are Rome-anian and they spend hugh effort digging up every Roman latrine and toilet and fort that the Romans left and try to co-opt Italian history, it would be ridiculous and the Romanians would be ridiculed



This is what Indians are trying to do,
Co-opt our history
Utilising a fantasy and hindutva myth driven Indian historians to try and churn out bullshit and try to find every nook and cranny IVC Inhabitants may have spread over the border into India to create a narrative, that they push onto their hindutva masses



Shameless people

 

[Master Chief]

Rome is in Italy
The Roman empire started in Rome, Italy and spread over much of Europe and the Mediterranean


If 2026 years later

We have people in Romania declare that because their country is called Rome-ania and they are Rome-anian and they spend hugh effort digging up every Roman latrine and toilet and fort that the Romans left and try to co-opt Italian history, it would be ridiculous and the Romanians would be ridiculed



This is what Indians are trying to do,
Co-opt our history
Utilising a fantasy and hindutva myth driven Indian historians to try and churn out bullshit and try to find every nook and cranny IVC Inhabitants may have spread over the border into India

Shameless people

The nation of FYROM did the same to Greeks by co-opting and usurping the word "Macedonia" and Macedonian heritage. They even named their airport after Alexander The Great until Greece set them straight.

No different to Hindustanis co-opting the word "India", despite being Gangadeshis.

Very shameless indeed.

 

[nahtanbob]

IVC was created by ordinary people for ordinary people , there weren't any God Kings and the associated trappings , it was a society that was harmonious with nature and at peace with herself.

There are tons of such civilizations in the new world - Americas

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Let's start with the Mughals, since they bug you so much but Ashoka's genocides are entirely forgivable for "spreading indic culture" as you yourself implied. Indeed, we know why "Mughals are mocked" as you put it so aptly.

They don't, I just enjoy putting them down, it's not like I lied. An empire filled with stories and paintings of harem and stories of graping young boys isn't something to be celebrated as a great empire. Forgetting the destruction of India's arts science astronomy.

And shameless as you are, you stick to your "200 years" claim despite having the opportunity to correct yourself. The islamic empire of the Delhi Sultanate was defeated by Babur in 1526. The abrahamic British deposed the last Mughal emperor in 1857. That's not 200 years.

So your argument is it's not 200 it's 300? No.
Babur kingdom didn't even reach Bengal or Deccan. It took Akbar to finally reach Bengal, still regions beyond Gondwana fort was beyond reach of Mughals took them few more decades to reach deccan and finally get to South.

Who you calling shameless I was being generous to them for giving it 200 years rule over undivided India. Ignoring North East and far South they never conquered.

We have been over the decline of the Mughals many times. Mughals fought other Muslims and Christian British to exhaustion. Indeed, the British had been fighting the Mughals for 80 years before Marathas had the courage to pick up a sword. Hindus turned up when that exhaustion was nearly complete. The British themselves defeated and deposed the last of the Mughals, and then defeated your precious Marathas without too much trouble. I don't know where you get your historical knowledge from but it is truly saffronised beyond recourse.

Man you have zero clue of Indian history just wibing and feeling. Marathas under leadership of Shivji established an independent kingdom in 1650s, there was no British then by 1674 after a series of campaigns against the Mughals he declared himself as an emperor directly challenging Mughals.

Aurangazeb personally lead a campaign to Deccan to recaputure what was lost after death of Shivji he spend 27 years of his life in Deccan fighting one war after the other. Draining Mughal treasury of its wealth.
When Marathas lost their next king they simply switched to Guerrilla warfare and Aurangzeb died there in Ahmednagar area of Maharashtra (of old age) the old fart drained Mughal of its wealth fighting the Marathas on Deccan. When that old fool died his empire collapsed like a pack of cards and were picked apart by the Marathas. Mughals engaged the east India company only twice, oneness during peak Mughal power 1686, they made the East India conoany pay massive fines for the war. The second one was after Marathas defeated Mughals, the British saw an opportunity and took some land from the Mughals.
The British defeated the Maratha Empire in second Anglo Maratha war, first anglo Maratha war ended with Maratha victory. By this time, Mughals were Maratha vassal under the treaty of Ahmadiyya. Please don't blurt out stuff like Mughals were deposed off. Like Mughals were a vassal and held no power when British deposed them. They deposed them because the 1857 rebellion put Bahadur Shah as their leader. Mughals never took part in the revolt of 1857 gave some moral support. For which he was arrested and send to some camp in Myanmar details are irrelevant.

It is abundantly clear that Abrahamics controlled the subcontinent while Dharmics stood and watched diligently.

Whether you like it or not, Mehrgarh's script is a precursor of IVC script. This is well established through excavation of tablets, seals, and amulets that are inscribed with formulaic markings that are regarded as the root of Harappan script. Pakistani archaeologists have themselves excavated extensively at Mehrgahr, despite your apparent disbelief at this reality. Who on earth do you think was excavating there? Did you think Indians had 5 year archaeology visas to come and do it? These artefacts from Mehrgahr are in Lahore Museum:

Not anymore though. But regardless India's golden period was when Dharmics held the reigns.

It's a nice theory about Mehrgarh. But there is nothing called Mehrgarh script it was simply markings and Bhiranna neither had scripts these writings were found in Harappa and Mohenjodaro while we still haven't deciphered them. That is we still don't know if it's a script or simply stamp markings. The precursor is a theory as long as we can't decipher any of the scripts.
Most of the findings were done by the British who excavated the sites. There was countless articles in your own papers about the absolute state of your archeology departments who cannot even protect the sites.

Notice the swastikas, similar to those found in Harappa.

No amount of carbon dating will change the realties of the regional movement of people, ideas, ideologies, and language.

In any case, I have already explained the similarities of even the archaeological carbon dating of artefacts from both Mehrgahr and Bhiranna (hardly a 500 year gap, which is insignificant in the context of civilisational development!). Beyond this, some authors literally argue that Mehrgahr's inhabitants themselves moved to Harappa to establish the IVC when Mehrgahr became too arid.

Looks like a cross mortif. If you label every cross signs as Swastika then the world is filled with swastikas.
Lets call it your favourite term "proto-swastika".

Mehrgarh is continuously populated land, so there is early phase and mature phase because Mehrgarh lay close to other IVC sites in India. Mehrgarh is far which is an issue, scholar theories can be put to rest as soon as we find a skeleton with viable dna from Mehrgarh. (Crossing fingers)

What will you tell us now, that Harappans moved from Bhiranna to Harappa and finally to Mehrgahr, where they dumbed down their own language and technology as a deliberate act of regression??

Huh? No. My point is IVC was created by two hunter gatherer groups. IHG and AASI as far as DNA is concerned. Especially given the DNA is from late stage IVC.

What is actually wrong with your race that you refuse to accept Pakistani (and before us, Zagrosian) origins for your species? Are Englishmen "offended" that they are mostly actually Germanic?

Staying on this topic, in a more general sense, both genetic (as explained to you ad nauseam, the Iranian Farmers were a distinct genomic group emerging from the Zagros region) and medical evidence implies an eastward flow of genes (genetic lactose intolerance traits irrefutably flowed from Iran into the subcontinent).

???? Now you're putting words in my mouth.

I never disagreed about Iranian presence here you're telling them as if its some revelation. It happened in 8000 BCE or thereabouts. Who cares.

Finally, as for "10 mughal advancements saaar!", you know as well as I do that Ashoka did nothing but bathe in blood, destroy stupas and then fight with his own siblings. He contributed nothing to the subcontinent's academia and arts, literally nothing. Apparently, his supposed apology for being a barbarian is his greatest redeeming quality and the sole reason that he is worshipped by na-like logo across the region. Don't make me laugh, "10 advancements saar". The fields of astronomy, metallurgy, medicine, arts, literature, poetry, navigation....it goes on and on. I'm happy to look up and post specific names of innovations and academic works if you wish but you and i both know already there is no comparison.

Huh? No? Ashoka Empire was the most advanced empire of its time. They were advanced in metallurgy, stone polish giving mirror like finish, early brahmi numerals, written history began with the Ashoka edicts even in places like Sri Lanka, until then it was oral traditions. Established worlds first vetenary hospitals, of course we had vetenary science before Ashoka but not real hospitals. Botanic sciences to take care of Plants and trees, I could go on and on. It's the most important consequencial empire in not just India's history but South East Asia including China and Japan lol! Nice try drawing parallel to bachabazi Mughals.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

This was a service to protect you guys from any hostility,

Hostility from whom? Rastafaris or Brahmins? In here we call them goonda collection. Dacoits often collect protection money so that their minions don't attack them.

Why is it that Hindus most prosper in Christian or Muslim lands, to this day.

????? Richest Hindu in the world is Mukesh Ambani, other richest Hindus live in Gujarat and Maharashtra top ten richest all of them live in India. Gujarat added more rich folks under your favorite Prime Minister Modi.
But success is not connected to religion it is associated with the country.

But since you raised this point, I looked up, the richest muslim in the world (outside the royalty) lives in India, Asim Premji. Richest muslims in South Asia lives in India as well. Why? Didn't Jinnah create the land so that Muslims can progress in their own country. What happened there?

 

[Master Chief]

They don't, I just enjoy putting them down, it's not like I lied. An empire filled with stories and paintings of harem and stories of graping young boys isn't something to be celebrated as a great empire. Forgetting the destruction of India's arts science astronomy.

So your argument is it's not 200 it's 300? No.
Babur kingdom didn't even reach Bengal or Deccan. It took Akbar to finally reach Bengal, still regions beyond Gondwana fort was beyond reach of Mughals took them few more decades to reach deccan and finally get to South.

Who you calling shameless I was being generous to them for giving it 200 years rule over undivided India. Ignoring North East and far South they never conquered.

Man you have zero clue of Indian history just wibing and feeling. Marathas under leadership of Shivji established an independent kingdom in 1650s, there was no British then by 1674 after a series of campaigns against the Mughals he declared himself as an emperor directly challenging Mughals.

Aurangazeb personally lead a campaign to Deccan to recaputure what was lost after death of Shivji he spend 27 years of his life in Deccan fighting one war after the other. Draining Mughal treasury of its wealth.
When Marathas lost their next king they simply switched to Guerrilla warfare and Aurangzeb died there in Ahmednagar area of Maharashtra (of old age) the old fart drained Mughal of its wealth fighting the Marathas on Deccan. When that old fool died his empire collapsed like a pack of cards and were picked apart by the Marathas. Mughals engaged the east India company only twice, oneness during peak Mughal power 1686, they made the East India conoany pay massive fines for the war. The second one was after Marathas defeated Mughals, the British saw an opportunity and took some land from the Mughals.
The British defeated the Maratha Empire in second Anglo Maratha war, first anglo Maratha war ended with Maratha victory. By this time, Mughals were Maratha vassal under the treaty of Ahmadiyya. Please don't blurt out stuff like Mughals were deposed off. Like Mughals were a vassal and held no power when British deposed them. They deposed them because the 1857 rebellion put Bahadur Shah as their leader. Mughals never took part in the revolt of 1857 gave some moral support. For which he was arrested and send to some camp in Myanmar details are irrelevant.

Not anymore though. But regardless India's golden period was when Dharmics held the reigns.

It's a nice theory about Mehrgarh. But there is nothing called Mehrgarh script it was simply markings and Bhiranna neither had scripts these writings were found in Harappa and Mohenjodaro while we still haven't deciphered them. That is we still don't know if it's a script or simply stamp markings. The precursor is a theory as long as we can't decipher any of the scripts.
Most of the findings were done by the British who excavated the sites. There was countless articles in your own papers about the absolute state of your archeology departments who cannot even protect the sites.

Looks like a cross mortif. If you label every cross signs as Swastika then the world is filled with swastikas.
Lets call it your favourite term "proto-swastika".

Mehrgarh is continuously populated land, so there is early phase and mature phase because Mehrgarh lay close to other IVC sites in India. Mehrgarh is far which is an issue, scholar theories can be put to rest as soon as we find a skeleton with viable dna from Mehrgarh. (Crossing fingers)

Huh? No. My point is IVC was created by two hunter gatherer groups. IHG and AASI as far as DNA is concerned. Especially given the DNA is from late stage IVC.

???? Now you're putting words in my mouth.

I never disagreed about Iranian presence here you're telling them as if its some revelation. It happened in 8000 BCE or thereabouts. Who cares.

Huh? No? Ashoka Empire was the most advanced empire of its time. They were advanced in metallurgy, stone polish giving mirror like finish, early brahmi numerals, written history began with the Ashoka edicts even in places like Sri Lanka, until then it was oral traditions. Established worlds first vetenary hospitals, of course we had vetenary science before Ashoka but not real hospitals. Botanic sciences to take care of Plants and trees, I could go on and on. It's the most important consequencial empire in not just India's history but South East Asia including China and Japan lol! Nice try drawing parallel to bachabazi Mughals.

You're full of effusive praise for the mighty Maratha Empire. Naturally you wish to obviate every single year of Mughal dominance but you fail to tell the reader why - this supposed mightiest empire of the grand dharmic legacy lasted how long, despite overwhelming force of numerical superiority over us lowly abrahamics? Do tell us!

1674-1818. Do the maths.

Yes Mughal Empire was greater than 330 years by itself, and this 330 years was quite simply a golden age that put the subcontinent on the map, but together with other Islamic Empires, it was closer to 1000 years of darkness right? Ref: Anantkumar Hegde, BJP.

Do also advise us at which point in history the Marathas governed the whole subcontinent. Truly I am curious to know, since somehow the Mughals not bothering with backwater treeswingers in the hinterland somehow excluded them from greatness.

You're questioning my knowledge of sub continental history while happily omitting facts about the Mughal Empire to suit your "Maratha conquerors" narrative. You are shockingly (likely intentionally) ignorant of reality and trying to mislead the unprepared forumgoer with this nonsense. Mughals were categorically NOT exhausted by Shivaji and his Maratha loin cloth wearers. On the contrary, the sultanates of Bijapur and Ahmednagar and the Mughal Empire were all COMPETING in the region Shivaji arose to prominence. He was a lowly bandit, raiding from the shadows. After this period, in the early 18th Century, Aurangzeb's death led to civil war. Several Nawabs declared autonomy. Nadir Shah and Ahmed Shah Abdali's invasions also harmed the Mughals greatly by direct destruction, pillaging and looting.

In other words, your nation's history was a story of dharmics squatting by the side of a road while abrahamics fought each other, then drawing their knives when their enemy was truly exhausted. Like the brave warriors they are!

As for Ashoka and his botanical sciences, don't embarrass yourself further. These loin cloth wearers achieved nothing of note other than trashing stupas and hoarding coin. You are, predictably, demonstrating typical pajeetistani logic if you insist on questioning Mughal contributions to the arts and sciences.

Back on topic, please try to understand rhetoric when deployed against you. My suggestion that you claim some backwards progression of Harappan evolution from East to West was a rhetorical suggestion, designed to highlight the stupidity of your argument that "carbon dated oldest city equates to progenitor of whole civilisation saar!".

Frankly speaking, there is little I need to do to expose your fraud as you are doing a mighty fine job all by yourself.

 

[mythbuster]

You're full of effusive praise for the mighty Maratha Empire. Naturally you wish to obviate every single year of Mughal dominance but you fail to tell the reader why - this supposed mightiest empire of the grand dharmic legacy lasted how long, despite overwhelming force of numerical superiority over us lowly abrahamics? Do tell us!

1674-1818. Do the maths.

Yes Mughal Empire was greater than 330 years by itself, and this 330 years was quite simply a golden age that put the subcontinent on the map, but together with other Islamic Empires, it was closer to 1000 years of darkness right? Ref: Anantkumar Hegde, BJP.

Do also advise us at which point in history the Marathas governed the whole subcontinent. Truly I am curious to know, since somehow the Mughals not bothering with backwater treeswingers in the hinterland somehow excluded them from greatness.

You're questioning my knowledge of sub continental history while happily omitting facts about the Mughal Empire to suit your "Maratha conquerors" narrative. You are shockingly (likely intentionally) ignorant of reality and trying to mislead the unprepared forumgoer with this nonsense. Mughals were categorically NOT exhausted by Shivaji and his Maratha loin cloth wearers. On the contrary, the sultanates of Bijapur and Ahmednagar and the Mughal Empire were all COMPETING in the region Shivaji arose to prominence. He was a lowly bandit, raiding from the shadows. After this period, in the early 18th Century, Aurangzeb's death led to civil war. Several Nawabs declared autonomy. Nadir Shah and Ahmed Shah Abdali's invasions also harmed the Mughals greatly by direct destruction, pillaging and looting.

In other words, your nation's history was a story of dharmics squatting by the side of a road while abrahamics fought each other, then drawing their knives when their enemy was truly exhausted. Like the brave warriors they are!

As for Ashoka and his botanical sciences, don't embarrass yourself further. These loin cloth wearers achieved nothing of note other than trashing stupas and hoarding coin. You are, predictably, demonstrating typical pajeetistani logic if you insist on questioning Mughal contributions to the arts and sciences.

Back on topic, please try to understand rhetoric when deployed against you. My suggestion that you claim some backwards progression of Harappan evolution from East to West was a rhetorical suggestion, designed to highlight the stupidity of your argument that "carbon dated oldest city equates to progenitor of whole civilisation saar!".

Frankly speaking, there is little I need to do to expose your fraud as you are doing a mighty fine job all by yourself.

Birth of Maratha empire is like a birth of child in a hijra's house..... celebration is natural

 

[r3alist]

Hostility from whom? Rastafaris or Brahmins? In here we call them goonda collection. Dacoits often collect protection money so that their minions don't attack them.

the system allowed Hindus to persist in their religion and customs via a levy to the state who had to administer the state.

There were gradations and brahmins actually came off okay, that's because if there is one commonality of India throughout time is having anti universalist practices through castes.

It's the system which allowed Hindus to avoid being called for military service

I don't know exactly what you expect in that era, I don't even know what your reference point for an era relevant system of values, I bet you don't have one.

however it is upside down that you complain about this given Buddhism is meant to have begun in India yet it was effectively shoved out by Hindu brahmins, so let's not talk about tolerance unless you can explain what universalist principles India had ever had before Islam came to the land.

????? Richest Hindu in the world is Mukesh Ambani, other richest Hindus live in Gujarat and Maharashtra top ten richest all of them live in India. Gujarat added more rich folks under your favorite Prime Minister Modi.
But success is not connected to religion it is associated with the country.

But since you raised this point, I looked up, the richest muslim in the world (outside the royalty) lives in India, Asim Premji. Richest muslims in South Asia lives in India as well. Why? Didn't Jinnah create the land so that Muslims can progress in their own country. What happened there

Let's not be silly and focus on individuals, look all over the world where hindus in the millions make a living and prosper under universal and indeed abrahamic societies ....already established, Canada USA UK UAE Saudi Oman, and now you have New Zealand Ireland and probably more places to go, how can their values be so bad when your whole country is trying to get over to these places?

Yet It doesn't work the other way around does it?


So it's a complete awareness failure that you could even moan about a system half a millennium ago as if it's some deep psychic scar, in the context of history it's kind of absurd.

 

[r3alist]

There were gradations and brahmins actually came off okay, that's because if there is one commonality of India throughout time is having anti universalist practices through castes.

Just to add to this, the tax was like a typical tax and was means based, so richer would pay more, some people were also exempted

Remember Muslims had to pay zakaat, so my guy here is crying crocodile tears because the losing Hindu groups also had to chip in for the state that gave them provision to persist

And remember that the old medieval English and European kings would tax the peasantry massively to fund all of the intrq European wars


I think it's because you Cannot comprehend being the administrator of power at the time, hence you retrofit woke thinking to the past.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

the system allowed Hindus to persist in their religion and customs via a levy to the state who had to administer the state.

There were gradations and brahmins actually came off okay, that's because if there is one commonality of India throughout time is having anti universalist practices through castes.

It's the system which allowed Hindus to avoid being called for military service

I don't know exactly what you expect in that era, I don't even know what your reference point for an era relevant system of values, I bet you don't have one.

however it is upside down that you complain about this given Buddhism is meant to have begun in India yet it was effectively shoved out by Hindu brahmins, so let's not talk about tolerance unless you can explain what universalist principles India had ever had before Islam came to the land.

What you mean? You think some of the richest empires in India didn't collect taxes? They did, but it wasn't the central feature of their empires.

As for Budhism, it declined because their own saints got defeated in debates. These debates had a largely negative impact on Buddhism in India but the biggest one that caused were the invasions and conversions. You can write about peace but when it comes to war you gotta pick up the spear.

Let's not be silly and focus on individuals, look all over the world where hindus in the millions make a living and prosper under universal and indeed abrahamic societies ....already established, Canada USA UK UAE Saudi Oman, and now you have New Zealand Ireland and probably more places to go, how can their values be so bad when your whole country is trying to get over to these places?

Yet It doesn't work the other way around does it?


So it's a complete awareness failure that you could even moan about a system half a millennium ago as if it's some deep psychic scar, in the context of history it's kind of absurd.

Hindus are successful regardless of the condition. They are successful in India, they are also successful abroad. I don't know what are you trying to prove here. It's not 1000 AD there are no invasions.

Indian minorities living in India are more successful than the countries or ideologies they came from as well.

Just to add to this, the tax was like a typical tax and was means based, so richer would pay more, some people were also exempted

Remember Muslims had to pay zakaat, so my guy here is crying crocodile tears because the losing Hindu groups also had to chip in for the state that gave them provision to persist

And remember that the old medieval English and European kings would tax the peasantry massively to fund all of the intrq European wars


I think it's because you Cannot comprehend being the administrator of power at the time, hence you retrofit woke thinking to the past.

Fancy stories. Having state patronage and look at the entitlement.

Your argument as if goonda protection money is somehow proper tax. No, the goonda protection money was in addition to the regular land and revenue taxes which everyone paid.
Mughal emperor Akbar removed it because he had to make deals and compromises and people resented such taxes. But no point in dwelling in those times, Mughals or their activities are not under scrutiny here.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

You're full of effusive praise for the mighty Maratha Empire. Naturally you wish to obviate every single year of Mughal dominance but you fail to tell the reader why - this supposed mightiest empire of the grand dharmic legacy lasted how long, despite overwhelming force of numerical superiority over us lowly abrahamics? Do tell us!

No, it's just that we don't really like Mughal empire. I didn't say they weren't successful. They were successful at capturing most of the land congratulations to them I guess.

1674-1818. Do the maths.

144

Yes Mughal Empire was greater than 330 years by itself, and this 330 years was quite simply a golden age that put the subcontinent on the map, but together with other Islamic Empires, it was closer to 1000 years of darkness right? Ref: Anantkumar Hegde, BJP.

Not really, the Mughal empire peaked and decline quite quickly. It wasn't golden age or anything. Their high GDP is because they had control of largest fertile plains and trading hubs they conquered. It's not like they conquered no man's land and transformed the regions. This old 1000 year story is especially true for Pakistan around 700 to 1700 before the British rule. That's where this 1000 years rule story comes from. Most of the foreign Empires in India didn't continuously control India. They were fighting constant wars, their hold was rather weak. Not even Mughals could hold on to it.

Do also advise us at which point in history the Marathas governed the whole subcontinent. Truly I am curious to know, since somehow the Mughals not bothering with backwater treeswingers in the hinterland somehow excluded them from greatness.

Why are you interested in Marathas now. I said they defeated the Mughals and removed them completely. I didn't say Maratha Empire was the greatest empire in history or anything. They were rather a rectionary empire which was a turning point in Indian history.
They were the last Indic empire in India. They also got defeated by the British.

You're questioning my knowledge of sub continental history while happily omitting facts about the Mughal Empire to suit your "Maratha conquerors" narrative. You are shockingly (likely intentionally) ignorant of reality and trying to mislead the unprepared forumgoer with this nonsense. Mughals were categorically NOT exhausted by Shivaji and his Maratha loin cloth wearers. On the contrary, the sultanates of Bijapur and Ahmednagar and the Mughal Empire were all COMPETING in the region Shivaji arose to prominence. He was a lowly bandit, raiding from the shadows. After this period, in the early 18th Century, Aurangzeb's death led to civil war. Several Nawabs declared autonomy. Nadir Shah and Ahmed Shah Abdali's invasions also harmed the Mughals greatly by direct destruction, pillaging and looting.

Your analysis and knowledge on the history is weak. I'm not writing fictions, all the comments I made are from Mughal ministers who wrote down their stupid ass thoughts. Like how the war in Deccan is draining their wealth, how the Emperor is spending his time in Deccan. Tell me why did he die in Deccan instead of his capital city almost a thousand km away?
Aurangzeb death forced small kings to declare independence because his empire had no money. That lead to the decline of the empire. It wasn't some competition.

In other words, your nation's history was a story of dharmics squatting by the side of a road while abrahamics fought each other, then drawing their knives when their enemy was truly exhausted. Like the brave warriors they are!

The land was ruled by Dharmics for the majority of it's written history. We influenced langauge, religion and culture of East Asia.

As for Ashoka and his botanical sciences, don't embarrass yourself further. These loin cloth wearers achieved nothing of note other than trashing stupas and hoarding coin. You are, predictably, demonstrating typical pajeetistani logic if you insist on questioning Mughal contributions to the arts and sciences.

Dude I got nothing to prove here. This is the age of the internet you can easily fact check me. It's a well known fact that Ashoka Empire was the greatest empire that ruled over India. Not only because of his rule over Subcon but his influence to the east. Just because a bunch of invaders ruled over you doesn't mean we ignore our history and culture.
Why glaze over fact that Mughals were in fact degenerates. Come on tell me I am lying when I say Mughal emperors like babur were ghay. My guy wrote peoms celebrating his rather young boyfriend in Central Asia. Ye le Mughal contribution to "art". Delhi sultanate wasn't so different, Khilji types. At least they were woke before it was cool.

Back on topic, please try to understand rhetoric when deployed against you. My suggestion that you claim some backwards progression of Harappan evolution from East to West was a rhetorical suggestion, designed to highlight the stupidity of your argument that "carbon dated oldest city equates to progenitor of whole civilisation saar!".

Frankly speaking, there is little I need to do to expose your fraud as you are doing a mighty fine job all by yourself.

You're writing wordsalads instead of accepting a simple fact that oldest and largest sites of IVC are in India. That's what I said initially and triggered you for whatever reason. And look where we are now.

We even excavated and found another site in Sinauli which had chariots used by IVC people so they weren't some trading folks, they in fact had armies. (RC dated 2500BCE). So what is your problem exactly. You want to accept Mehrgarh as precursor, go ahead then. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[r3alist]

What you mean? You think some of the richest empires in India didn't collect taxes? They did, but it wasn't the central feature of their empires.

Do you even know how much the tax was, it was around or less than 5% annually

I'm wondering why you are not more grateful for it

As for Budhism, it declined because their own saints got defeated in debates

It got shoved out of the way by brahmins, who saw Buddhism as competition, they marginalized the Buddhists into the periphery

India can actually claim to be the place where Buddhism was diminished, and jizzya is a levy that allowed Hindus to persist, in a considered way, the contrast its clear

Hindus are successful regardless of the condition. They are successful in India, they are also successful abroad. I don't know what are you trying to prove here.

Hindus are not successful in India, dalits as a group remain at the bottom of Hindu Indian society by design.

Indians flock when they can to societies which offer universal values, greater than where they are coming from.

Because if abrahamic principles were so abhorrent why would you benefit from it? You won't answer that one will you I know

Your argument as if goonda protection money is somehow proper tax. No, the goonda protection money was in addition to the regular land and revenue taxes which everyone paid.
Mughal emperor Akbar removed it because he had to make deals and compromises and people resented such taxes

What era do you think you were living in

You were defeated yet you want five star treatment lol it was just a small percentage of earnings that's it

I asked you for what your reference point is for an appropriate values system...... If you don't have one what are you crying for? Paying a tax