Royal Saudi Arabian Strategic Missile Force

[FuturePAF]

The one thing that Muslim countries should have ASAP is interoperability. Today, if Godforbid someone attack Turkey. Pakistan can not defend them. And vice versa. The way we all would want to. Because we are not trained to use any of their military equipment that they have.

The basic and common military equipments like assault rifles, tanks, fighter jets etc.... they should be common among Pakistan, Turkey, KSA, Qatar, Egypt, and Iran etc.

I agree, this is why Saudi, Pakistan, Qatar, and Egypt should adopt many Turkish and Pakistani systems in development. Sharing technology, training engineers, having multiple factories to make the same product, so war damage will put supporting equipment out of commission. A pool of efforts by these countries could help accelerate these projects and bring costs down.

 

[RealNapster]

I agree, this is why Saudi, Pakistan, Qatar, and Egypt should adopt many Turkish and Pakistani systems in development. Sharing technology, training engineers, having multiple factories to make the same product, so war damage will put supporting equipment out of commission. A pool of efforts by these countries could help accelerate these projects and bring costs down.

What turkish defence industries can do (for Pakistan and for its own survival) is to shift atleast 25% of their production capacities to Pakistan.

Why ?

Because if turkey have any conflict with israel or greece... these plants in turkey will be the first targets. So to ensure military equipment supplies to its forces incase of war. Turkey need backup production plants outside Turkey.

And in peace times, these plants in Pakistan will fulfill our needs and may even be used for export of Turkish military equipments to other countries...


I just realized we are off-topic. But still, that's what I hope for.

 

[Michael]

Most of KSA's underground bases (expanding as several OSINT users and satellites photos over the years have confirmed - with a lot of activity just within the past 1 year), ballistic missiles etc. have been constructed with Chinese help.

China has sold some ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia. Because Saudi Arabia lacks the complete operational, maintenance, and base construction capabilities, PLARF established a dedicated agency to handle related matters. This agency is part of the cooperation agreement between the two countries. Their main responsibilities include base construction and missile maintenance. ------ This is a standard "after-sales service" agreement and should not be over-interpreted.

Just an idea, Pakistan have been investing heavily in its conventional rocket and missile force with alot of newly introduced medium-long range missiles. As part of the Pak-KSA defence deal, can a future deployment of Pakistani missile force under Pakistan rocket force command be explored in KSA ? Like is it something that make sense and is under consideration ?

Many Pakistanis (including you) have many misunderstandings about ARFC.

 

[_Arabia_]

China has sold some ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia. Because Saudi Arabia lacks the complete operational, maintenance, and base construction capabilities, PLARF established a dedicated agency to handle related matters. This agency is part of the cooperation agreement between the two countries. Their main responsibilities include base construction and missile maintenance. ------ This is a standard "after-sales service" agreement and should not be over-interpreted.


Many Pakistanis (including you) have many misunderstandings about ARFC.

That was more than 40 years ago. The events you are referring to occurred in the 1980s.

I find it incredibly unlikely that local expertise wasn't developed long ago, whether we are talking about the missiles themselves or the facilities.

I also do not believe that there is any Chinese military presence in KSA. That ended ages ago.

I have not seen any confirmation to the contrary from OSINT accounts, declassified intelligence from major intelligence services, newspaper reports, local rumors etc.

 

[The SC]

China has sold some ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia. Because Saudi Arabia lacks the complete operational, maintenance, and base construction capabilities, PLARF established a dedicated agency to handle related matters. This agency is part of the cooperation agreement between the two countries. Their main responsibilities include base construction and missile maintenance. ------ This is a standard "after-sales service" agreement and should not be over-interpreted.

 

[Michael]

That was more than 40 years ago. The events you are referring to occurred in the 1980s.

I find it incredibly unlikely that local expertise wasn't developed long ago, whether we are talking about the missiles themselves or the facilities.

I also do not believe that there is any Chinese military presence in KSA. That ended ages ago.

I have not seen any confirmation to the contrary from OSINT accounts, declassified intelligence from major intelligence services, newspaper reports, local rumors etc.

In the 1980s, China sold DF-3 ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia. The agreement included not only the missiles but also services such as base construction, training, operation, maintenance, and operational advisory services.

The Second Artillery Corps (the predecessor of the PLARF), under the name "Golden Wheel Project Company," established military bases for Saudi Arabia and deployed troops there on rotation.

The above information is publicly available.

Logically, the "Golden Wheel Project Company" was a special, temporary organization established specifically for Saudi Arabia's ballistic missile program. It should have been disbanded after completing its mission.

However, in reality, this organization still exists. Although it is a highly classified organization, we can occasionally glean clues from news reports. It is directly led by a PLARF major general and reports directly to PLARF headquarters.

So, can you guess why this organization still exists?

 

[The SC]

In the 1980s, China sold DF-3 ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia. The agreement included not only the missiles but also services such as base construction, training, operation, maintenance, and operational advisory services.

The Second Artillery Corps (the predecessor of the PLARF), under the name "Golden Wheel Project Company," established military bases for Saudi Arabia and deployed troops there on rotation.

The above information is publicly available.

Logically, the "Golden Wheel Project Company" was a special, temporary organization established specifically for Saudi Arabia's ballistic missile program. It should have been disbanded after completing its mission.

However, in reality, this organization still exists. Although it is a highly classified organization, we can occasionally glean clues from news reports. It is directly led by a PLARF major general and reports directly to PLARF headquarters.

So, can you guess why this organization still exists?

That only means one thing..it is that after all this time: bases construction, training, operation, maintenance, and operational advisory services are still going on ..now imagine the number of bases and the missiles in them..and not only that..now China is assisting KSA in manufacturing Its own missiles including test bases..

 

[_Arabia_]

In the 1980s, China sold DF-3 ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia. The agreement included not only the missiles but also services such as base construction, training, operation, maintenance, and operational advisory services.

The Second Artillery Corps (the predecessor of the PLARF), under the name "Golden Wheel Project Company," established military bases for Saudi Arabia and deployed troops there on rotation.

The above information is publicly available.

Logically, the "Golden Wheel Project Company" was a special, temporary organization established specifically for Saudi Arabia's ballistic missile program. It should have been disbanded after completing its mission.

However, in reality, this organization still exists. Although it is a highly classified organization, we can occasionally glean clues from news reports. It is directly led by a PLARF major general and reports directly to PLARF headquarters.

So, can you guess why this organization still exists?

Do we know with any remote certainty that the existence of this company continues to this day?

What I am saying, here 40 + years after, is that Chinese involvement nowadays is likely limited to a advisory role.

I find it completely unlikely, also given intelligence reports made public by CIA and other intelligence services that confirm this (Saudi Arabian local missile manufacturing and locally engineered underground missile bases), that in the span of 40 years +, given the resources, human capital, finances, political will etc., that anything else is not the case.

So if in existence, this (advisory role) could explain the situation perfectly and makes the most sense from a logical point of view.

As I wrote, I have not seen any evidence to the contrary whether it comes to intelligence reports from across the world (those made public), OSINT observations, satellite photos, local sources and rumors (albeit sparse), Chinese sources (albeit sparse again) etc.

 

[Michael]

Do we know with any remote certainty that the existence of this company continues to this day?

The "Golden Wheel Project Company" is a highly classified military organization. Very little information is available to us.

But,

In 2016, when the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress in Beijing released information about its deputies, one of them (a PLA Major General) was listed as the head of the "Golden Wheel Project" command. ------ This is the most recent leak of official information.

This organization still exists in numerous analyses of the PLA's post-reform organizational structure by OSINT. (This is not official PLA information.)

What I am saying, here 40 + years after, is that Chinese involvement nowadays is likely limited to a advisory role.

That only means one thing..it is that after all this time: bases construction, training, operation, maintenance, and operational advisory services are still going on ..now imagine the number of bases and the missiles in them..and not only that..now China is assisting KSA in manufacturing Its own missiles including test bases..

If Saudi Arabia and China reach a ballistic missile technology transfer agreement, the personnel providing technical support should be technicians from military industrial enterprises, not PLARF.

PLARF does not produce missiles, nor does it possess missile manufacturing technology. It falls under the category of Chinese state-owned military industrial enterprises. Although these are state-owned enterprises and closely related to PLARF, China maintains a very clear distinction in handling these matters.

 

[_Arabia_]

The "Golden Wheel Project Company" is a highly classified military organization. Very little information is available to us.

But,

In 2016, when the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress in Beijing released information about its deputies, one of them (a PLA Major General) was listed as the head of the "Golden Wheel Project" command. ------ This is the most recent leak of official information.

This organization still exists in numerous analyses of the PLA's post-reform organizational structure by OSINT. (This is not official PLA information.)



If Saudi Arabia and China reach a ballistic missile technology transfer agreement, the personnel providing technical support should be technicians from military industrial enterprises, not PLARF.

PLARF does not produce missiles, nor does it possess missile manufacturing technology. It falls under the category of Chinese state-owned military industrial enterprises. Although these are state-owned enterprises and closely related to PLARF, China maintains a very clear distinction in handling these matters.

Sorry for the late reply.

I appreciate your feedback. As you write the latest (supposedly, I am not sure but I trust you here) new news was back in 2016. That is a very long time ago. In particular in our part of the world. Also given regional events that have impacted KSA directly since that time (civil war in Yemen and subsequent KSA involvement on the Yemeni government side and subsequent, in the 100's if not 1000's, of ballistics missile and drone attacks aimed at KSA - vast, vast majority dealt with successfully as I demonstrated in this thread earlier by posting sources), recent regional conflict etc.

Which are further arguments in favor of the Chinese participation nowadays being mostly in an advisory role.

Maybe I am blind, but I don't see you necessarily disagreeing with my conclusion in this regard.

As for the organization in question, I never said that they do not longer exist, merely that if they exist, their role likely advisory in nature as I wrote, has changed a lot from when it was initially created in the 1980's, where KSA, outside of cooperation and support for neighboring Iraqi and Egyptian missile projects, was indeed limited in terms of knowledge and accomplishments in this regard.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Has Saudi Arabia "flight-tested" or "training-tested" any ballistic missiles in the last 5-years.

If flight-tested, that would confirm Saudi Arabia is actively building ballistic missiles. If not, then there's no development going on.

If training-tested, that would confirm Saudi Arabia has inducted either new ballistic missiles or old ones are still in service and their serviceability is being verified.

 

[Michael]

Sorry for the late reply.

I appreciate your feedback. As you write the latest (supposedly, I am not sure but I trust you here) new news was back in 2016. That is a very long time ago. In particular in our part of the world. Also given regional events that have impacted KSA directly since that time (civil war in Yemen and subsequent KSA involvement on the Yemeni government side and subsequent, in the 100's if not 1000's, of ballistics missile and drone attacks aimed at KSA - vast, vast majority dealt with successfully as I demonstrated in this thread earlier by posting sources), recent regional conflict etc.

Which are further arguments in favor of the Chinese participation nowadays being mostly in an advisory role.

Maybe I am blind, but I don't see you necessarily disagreeing with my conclusion in this regard.

As for the organization in question, I never said that they do not longer exist, merely that if they exist, their role likely advisory in nature as I wrote, has changed a lot from when it was initially created in the 1980's, where KSA, outside of cooperation and support for neighboring Iraqi and Egyptian missile projects, was indeed limited in terms of knowledge and accomplishments in this regard.

1. China-Saudi Arabia cooperation programs began in the late 1980s. According to general understanding, the organization's work should have been completed before 2000. However, the fact that the organization still existed in 2016 indicates that it still had value and significance. However, no one knows the specifics of their work.

2. As I mentioned earlier, PLARF does not possess ballistic missile manufacturing technology. They are merely users of ballistic missiles, not developers or manufacturers. If cooperation between China and Saudi Arabia at the ballistic missile manufacturing technology level truly exists, then the Chinese institutions providing the corresponding services should be Chinese state-owned military enterprises, not this special institution within PLARF.

3. As for whether there is actually cooperation between China and Saudi Arabia at the level of ballistic missile manufacturing technology, I think it is not appropriate to analyze or discuss it.

 

[_Arabia_]

@Michael

What is official work and unofficial work is a blurry line when it comes to such matters. It would not take much of an effort for the PLARF to work jointly with Chinese firms specializing in missile technology jointly with Saudi Arabian counterparts. Hence the most likely advisory role today. In particular across a relationship (close one and strategic) that has lasted for 40 + years in this field.

What is unquestionable judging by OSINT data, numerous intelligence reports (CIA included), satellite imagery as well as what was already known 40 + years ago + KSA's political, military, economic, resource etc. will, is that the Saudi Arabian domestic missile field is rapidly expanding, including the underground missile basses across much of the country. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Also we are just discussing on an anonymous forum. Even if I had privy knowledge to such sensitive matters, I would never share it online or in person to people not knowing.

 

[SABRE]

Has Saudi Arabia "flight-tested" or "training-tested" any ballistic missiles in the last 5-years.

If flight-tested, that would confirm Saudi Arabia is actively building ballistic missiles. If not, then there's no development going on.

If training-tested, that would confirm Saudi Arabia has inducted either new ballistic missiles or old ones are still in service and their serviceability is being verified.

That's an important indicator. You don't just build rockets and missiles and put them in storage. Periodic improvements and upgrades in already operating systems are almost a necessity, which would require flight testing for technological validations. If a new system is developed, it must be flight-tested. Unless you have outsourced everything to another country or are just buying off the shelf from them.

 

[_Arabia_]

That's an important indicator. You don't just build rockets and missiles and put them in storage. Periodic improvements and upgrades in already operating systems are almost a necessity, which would require flight testing for technological validations. If a new system is developed, it must be flight-tested. Unless you have outsourced everything to another country or are just buying off the shelf from them.

Nothing what you wrote is a contradiction to the information contained in this thread at all.

Many components and subsystems can be tested underground or in enclosed facilities such as static rocket motor tests, engine development, environmental testing, launch mechanism tests, guidance and electronics.

Which is why most countries with advanced missile programs often conduct more ground tests than flight tests.

Also there have been many reports (see this thread) that Saudi Arabian missiles are being tested by/in Pakistan and China because if KSA openly started firing missiles (for purposes of testing the missile trajectory, long-range flight stability, midcourse guidances and navigation over long distances, reentry vehicle performance at hypersonic speeds for instance, CEP, stage seperation under real flight conditions etc.), it would only get KSA sanctioned (likely) with a rabid Israel literally next door as well as US/European etc. opposition. Hardly needed when you can test well-known missile systems with partners abroad (if even needed). Especially if you now have (like KSA) local missile production and underground testing in the well over 50 + reported undreground missile bases.

I also suggest reading up on how the KSA-China missile deal in the 1980's and later cooperation even came to be. It was a completely covert operation to such an extent that the CIA itself only discovered it many years later when it was too late to prevent it.

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Bruce Riedel (former CIA high-ranking official confirming what I am writing in this regard)

Lastly you really have to be either willfully ignorant or have a completely retarded leadership (which I doubt that the longest ruling dynasty in the region that controls the by far largest and richest country in the region no less, can be claimed to be), not to have established what Is being reported in the past 40 + years given regional developments, your almost unlimited money, resources, human capital, alliances. In fact I would claim that the leadership should commit collective seppuku if not the case which nothing points towards, luckily.