Operation Ghazab Lil Haq (Pakistan - Afghanistan War)

[muz]

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[Protagoras]

How many people does TTP or BLA kill????

In a year it's into the hundreds

And we kill a few thousand TTP or BLA is response

We are a nation of 250 million, what effect does a few hundred deaths mostly of locals in the middle of nowhere have on the state and population at large?

The answer is NOTHING



The situation is difficult, not because of the terrorists who we can destroy

It's because the locals are COMPLICIT and we can't find out who is a local and who is a terrorist, the locals are the grass within which the snakes hide


And this will be a ongoing low-level situation maybe FOREVER, because the underlying tension is ethnic



The same with the BLA


However afghans behaviour has resulted in the REPEATED COLLAPSE of Afghanistan now

Millions of Afghans have been thrown out of Pakistan

The border closures and end of trade has resulted in massive economic pain for Afghan traders


Denial of ports and airports have resulted in major consequences for afghans


And now we even have a low level civil war in Afghanistan, which we can make worse to keep afghans busy






The attacks of terrorists we can absorb, but our response can be devastating

We have chosen to be muted , given afghans time, tried to trade and talk, nothing works with afghans and it's now time to punish them severely

Insurgencies don't have to take over to win. Their mere existense let alone the scale of attacks, Pakistan is facing is a win for them.

We have 40% of the country's landmass now unsafe for anyone working with the Pakistani state.

Few countries in the world except maybe some in Africa (Sudan-Somalia) have a worse internal security outlook than Pakistan.

The bleed by a thousand cuts will eventually break down an already fragile bankrupt state. No investment is coming to Pakistan.

Your assumptions about whole ethnicities and an ethnic war already point towards fractured future. Pakistan already has a bad history when it tries to corner whole ethnicities.

 

[Distant_Observer]

Insurgencies don't have to take over to win. Their mere existense let alone the scale of attacks, Pakistan is facing is a win for them.

We have 40% of the country's landmass now unsafe for anyone working with the Pakistani state.

Few countries in the world except maybe some in Africa (Sudan-Somalia) have a worse internal security outlook than Pakistan.

The bleed by a thousand cuts will eventually break down an already fragile bankrupt state. No investment is coming to Pakistan.

Your assumptions about whole ethnicities and an ethnic war already point towards fractured future. Pakistan already has a bad history when it tries to corner whole ethnicities.

Collection of statistics and media attention began from 2000. This has been ongoing for the last 50 years.

We have discussed the reasons endlessly on this forum and the old. Apart from the pashtunist ethnonats we know the solution which is to degrade the taliban as an organisation, an ideology and influence.

This was the intention of Musharraf, he wanted to go after the taliban. He even went for Lal Masjid. He wanted to completely purge their tentacles from Pakistan. But the KPK people and other misguided and radicalized Pakistanis weren't with him. It would have saved thousands of lives if he was allowed to follow through. As soon as he was pushed out the proxies really got to work.

We can draw similarities now in Munir's reign. If he goes then its back to 2009 when major cities were getting bombed too. He needs to go all the way and finish the job.

So KPK and Baloch society must evolve and they are evolving. I would like their civilized, progressive, Pakistan cultured middle class and students to take the lead on how they want their society to be run instead.

I believe the PTI government in KPK use the taliban proxies as a way to keep everyone in check. Everyone knows if they speak out against PTI they would get slimed.

Don't PPP also use similar tactics in Sindh?

 

[Protagoras]

Collection of statistics and media attention began from 2000. This is been ongoing for the last 50 years.

We have discussed the reasons endlessly on this forum and the old. Apart from the pashtunist ethnonats we know the solution which is to degrade the taliban as an organisation, an ideology and influence.

For that to happen KPK and Baloch society must evolve and they are evolving. I would like their civilized, progressive, Pakistan cultured middle class and students to take the lead on how they want their society to be run instead of letting their close minded and very traditional crowd.

We missed the boat on Balochistan. The insurgency is led by those very students. Its a fact. Not debating now if its right or wrong but it is now the ground situation there.

Part of the reason was we killed all forms of political process. 2013-2015 was a good oppurtunity until the Establishment got greedy and went for total control in the form of BAP. Now there is no valve to release the pent up frustrations (whether they are legitimate or not).

Funny now that the same solution is proposed for KP as if Balochistan under total military control has been a success.

 

[Expert]

How many people does TTP or BLA kill????

In a year it's into the hundreds

And we kill a few thousand TTP or BLA is response

We are a nation of 250 million, what effect does a few hundred deaths mostly of locals in the middle of nowhere have on the state and population at large?

The answer is NOTHING



The situation is difficult, not because of the terrorists who we can destroy

It's because the locals are COMPLICIT and we can't find out who is a local and who is a terrorist, the locals are the grass within which the snakes hide


And this will be a ongoing low-level situation maybe FOREVER, because the underlying tension is ethnic



The same with the BLA


However afghans behaviour has resulted in the REPEATED COLLAPSE of Afghanistan now

Millions of Afghans have been thrown out of Pakistan

The border closures and end of trade has resulted in massive economic pain for Afghan traders


Denial of ports and airports have resulted in major consequences for afghans


And now we even have a low level civil war in Afghanistan, which we can make worse to keep afghans busy






The attacks of terrorists we can absorb, but our response can be devastating

We have chosen to be muted , given afghans time, tried to trade and talk, nothing works with afghans and it's now time to punish them severely

What kind of arguments is that ? You are saying 240 million -240 = doesn't matter. You can also argues 250-240 million will also make Pakistan much stronger. Because you'll have less people per available resources. Is that how Pakistan is supposed to run????

 

[hussain0216]

Insurgencies don't have to take over to win. Their mere existense let alone the scale of attacks, Pakistan is facing is a win for them.

We have 40% of the country's landmass now unsafe for anyone working with the Pakistani state.

Few countries in the world except maybe some in Africa (Sudan-Somalia) have a worse internal security outlook than Pakistan.

The bleed by a thousand cuts will eventually break down an already fragile bankrupt state. No investment is coming to Pakistan.

Your assumptions about whole ethnicities and an ethnic war already point towards fractured future. Pakistan already has a bad history when it tries to corner whole ethnicities.

Buddy it was ALWAYS like this

Since the 1940s, as a state we have had to deal with insurmountable odds

The basic core of our problem is extreme ethnocentrism

What that means is that the demand of the ethnoextemists just can't be agreed to
As a result we have endless conflict


Their is no solution to this political or otherwise

As a result we will have a permanent low level conflict forever

BECAUSE the ethnocentric issue is a people issue not just a militancy issue


We are finally just beginning to accept it
And finally begining to challenge it


But once again, 1000 deaths a year will not collapse a whole state,
But it will scare investment, tourism, jobs etc

This is why Balochistan and KP are such a mess and Punjab is so much better, simply because Punjabi are the most open to other people
The area has general peace and people want a better future

We have to keep fighting, giving up is not a option

 

[Distant_Observer]

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[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The Afgans must fight and kill each other, or Pak will die....

*"We must love one another or die" (WH Auden, September 1, 1939) is the original line in the poem. However, love and present-day Afgans are such an oxymoron that you need to rephrase it.

 

[RealNapster]

That's what the ISI is for

ISI is there for many decades. And it has been doing exactly what you saying. So then why are drones dropping mortar shells in our country, why are VBIEDs being blown in our country. Why there is a new attack daily by afghan taliban or there supported groups ? Bhai examples or history se seekhna se pakistanio ko moat q ati hy ?

 

[ghazi52]

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[PAKISTANFOREVER]

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DIE afghandus DIE!!!!!...............

 

[Ali_Baba]

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I am SHOCKED to see that PAF was not capable of destroying these Taliban helicopters during their strikes !!!

 

[Ali_Baba]

afghandustan should ALWAYS be kept in a perpetual state of civil war because ALL afghandu political factions are anti-Pakistani and will NEVER respect Pakistan's sovereignty and the durrand lline. Better for us that they wipe each other out.

This is the core problem. They will never be at peace with Pakistan, all permutations have been tried to put back together Afghanistan and it has not worked to make Afghanistan a stable and peaceful place. The safest place for all the neighbours to be, is for Afghanistan to be perpetually at war with itself it seems ?

I for one, will be glad to see the back of them given their attitude to females and their rights to education, and life itself.

 

[Ali_Baba]

2 options.

1. Client government in Kabul, along with a security buffer zone. Anything enters that zone, it gets shot.

2. Military conquest of Kabul.

I know option 2 sounds ridiculous, but we are already fortifying and guarding our frontier bases with our lives and the collateral lives of Pakistani civilians around those bases. Will it be that different to guarding Kabul governmental buildings in a "green zone" set up, only the lives of adjacent civilians will be Afghan ones rather than Pakistani?

Option 1 should be the starting point. Options 2 warrants consideration.

Nope. the answer is to send all Afghans home. Seal the borders properly and let them do what they do best to themselves, endless wars amongst themselves ? Let them take care of the Afghan problem themselves..

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

This is the core problem. They will never be at peace with Pakistan, all permutations have been tried to put back together Afghanistan and it has not worked to make Afghanistan a stable and peaceful place. The safest place for all the neighbours to be, is for Afghanistan to be perpetually at war with itself it seems ?

I for one, will be glad to see the back of them given their attitude to females and their rights to education, and life itself.

No ONE party or group should have dominant power in afghandustan. They should all be militarily balanced so they all think they have a chance of ruling afghandustan-prostitute land. Thus they will always be fighting each other in a perpetual state of civil war. Once a civil war stops in afghandustan, then assume they will try to carry out terrorism in Pakistan.