‘I want to cry’: Afghan medical students in Pakistan face expulsion fear

[El Sidd]

Very lively nation.

9 pages of discussion with diverse opinion and eager to form consensus.

 

[Master Chief]

The claim that “all Afghans are ungrateful and anti‑Pakistan” is factually incorrect, historically incomplete, and unfair to millions of Afghans who have lived peacefully, contributed economically, and maintained positive ties with Pakistan. Security concerns are real, but they don’t justify blanket judgments about an entire people.

Recently, I was invited by Afghani brother for Dinner and Pakistani retired Major sahab was also there.

You continue to misinterpret reality.

Kabul does not recognise Pakistani sovereignty. That individual Afghans are cordial, polite, and even good guests in Pakistan, is very much true. However, barring those who explicitly reject their own state policy in this regard (and there are plenty who do reject it for various reasons), the default assumption is justified. This is not blind discrimination but rather is a merit/evidence based assessment.

 

[The Sundance Kid]

Sure, not EVERY individual is problematic.

Still, better to just shut the door and be safe.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

You continue to misinterpret reality.

Kabul does not recognise Pakistani sovereignty. That individual Afghans are cordial, polite, and even good guests in Pakistan, is very much true. However, barring those who explicitly reject their own state policy in this regard (and there are plenty who do reject it for various reasons), the default assumption is justified. This is not blind discrimination but rather is a merit/evidence based assessment.

There is no need to argue because you already answered your own question.

You acknowledged that many Afghans are cordial and respectful in Pakistan,
many explicitly reject Kabul’s hostile posture and many abroad have no anti‑Pakistan sentiment at all.
Yet you still insist on a “default assumption” that treats them as aligned with Kabul.

If observed behavior contradicts the assumption, the assumption is wrong not the people.

I’m not misinterpreting reality at all. In fact, I’m painfully clear about who the real enemy of Pakistan is and it’s not ordinary Afghans, not neighboring countries, not outsiders. The real enemy is the puppet‑master elite inside Pakistan who have been draining this country for 79 years, feeding on public resources like vampires while pretending to be guardians of the state.

Pakistan has accumulated 307 billion dollars in total debt over these decades, yet look around, what do we have to show for it? No world‑class infrastructure, Lahore is not Paris, no stable institutions, no reliable governance, not long‑term economic vision. Just a cycle of mismanagement, corruption, and short‑term power games.

These people, the entrenched elite, the unaccountable power centers, the corrupt political mafia, are the ones who have hollowed out Pakistan from the inside. They are the ones who have turned a nation with immense potential into a perpetual crisis zone. They are the ones who have kept the public divided, distracted, and exhausted while they quietly enrich themselves.

So no, I’m not confused about reality. I’m simply refusing to blame ordinary Afghans or any other community for problems that were created by Pakistan’s own ruling class. The real threat to Pakistan has always been internal, the people who hold power without accountability, who make decisions without consequences, and who treat the country like their personal estate.

 

[Master Chief]

You acknowledged that many Afghans are cordial and respectful in Pakistan,
many explicitly reject Kabul’s hostile posture and many abroad have no anti‑Pakistan sentiment at all.
Yet you still insist on a “default assumption” that treats them as aligned with Kabul.

If observed behavior contradicts the assumption, the assumption is wrong not the people.

We don't differ that such individuals exist. We probably differ on the relative proportions of such individuals that exist.

We may also possibly differ on what defines "anti-Pakistan" sentiment.

For me, acceptance of Pakistani sovereignty over its western border constitutes either a neutral or a "pro-Pakistan" sentiment. Rejection of the border, in any theoretical or material sense, constitutes an "anti-Pakistan" sentiment. FYI, all Afghans I have met in the west are adamant that NWFP is "Afghan land" and some "freedom of movement" should exist, regardless of the behaviour of Afghans.

I don't think Schengen rules would be permitted in Europe if Italians were constantly blowing up Austrians or vice versa.

 

[ThunderCat]

Fake Pakistani passports and implications for national security​

Author: Dr Shazia Anwer Cheema

A 12-member committee at the federal level is already investigating the issue but I am sure only lower-grade employees would be netted even though this lucrative business has been going on in Islamabad for decades under the patronage of almost every stakeholder who is responsible for protecting the country from illegal foreigners.

Meanwhile, Pakistani authorities are getting hold of many Afghans at airports before they can depart for Gulf countries, particularly the UAE, with fake Pakistani passports. The situation is so serious that the interim government has involved top intelligence agencies to probe the issue. This is all done because civil and military leadership have a firm resolve to save the country from total collapse. What would be the fate of this resolve when the interim government hands over the country to elected representatives remains to be seen. With such a strong corrupt administration and avaricious political cadre, I fear we do not have a permanent solution.

A massive crackdown was expected against illegal aliens on the expiry of the October 31, 2023 deadline for voluntary exit from Pakistan. But the government is facing criticism from civil society organizations, also known as liberal left, for repatriating the Afghans back to their country.

There is need to sincerely review the multi-dimensional issues being faced by Pakistan due to the presence of illegal foreigners. It is not difficult to find that every such individual has the capacity and skills to abuse the Pakistani system and play havoc with its reputation, economy and society because Pakistan has been running on “norms” and “customs” instead of rules. The best example is the traffic of Afghans to and from Pakistan who had broad access due to the “Rahdari system”. They did not need travel documents, passports or visas to enter Pakistan because it was the “norm” and “custom” at the Pak-Afghan border. Moreover, this practice was cunningly linked to “ethnicity” issue and the state of Pakistan was bound to “respect” this “ethnic sensitivity”.

Many of my friends working at responsible positions in Gulf states believe that one of the reasons behind constituting a special committee to review the issue of illegal passports and national identity cards (CNIC) bought by Afghans and the crackdown on illegally residing Afghans is that a dangerous situation may emerge for Pakistanis living in Gulf countries. The issue of fake Pakistani passports obtained by Afghans has now become a serious nuisance for Gulf countries and they can launch a campaign to verify every Pakistani passport and such a situation may affect even bona fide Pakistani expats.

The issue of fake Pakistani passports may not be very important for those who live in Pakistan but for people like me who live abroad, it is a very sensitive issue because whenever any Afghan having a fake Pakistani identity is found involved in illegal businesses, we have no justification to tell people that he or she is not a Pakistani but an Afghan. Unfortunately, our state institutions in the past had never taken this issue seriously because of the “Muslim brotherhood” mantra. Even when, the situation has got due attention, our civil society is opposing the state’s decision of legalising foreigners according to international law.

When Afghan jihad was launched, our civil society had one genuine reservation: they feared destruction of our cultural and social fabric although Afghan refugees were allowed to stay in Pakistan on humanitarian grounds. The liberal left fought so hard for 40 years to get the Zia era wrongs undone. But now when this objective seems achievable, they are like following Zia-ul Haq’s Rah-e-Haq and Rah-e-Nejat doctrine. This shift may be appropriate for them but it would surely help undo what Zia did wrong with this nation.

 

[Oscar]

Maybe you should read the history of the regain to under historical facts.

Real enemy of Pakistani people are not Afghan Nationals (public will not buy this churan), real enemy is this system and whoever is supporting it (establishment, elite class, feudal lords and corrupt poitical mafia). They are the real enemy of Pakistan and Pakistani people.

Therefore - all Afghans who spout anti Pakistan propaganda are actually innocent because one truth automatically makes the other false.

It is impossible that there is a rotten system in Pakistan supported by elite establishment and also Afghan leaders, thinkers and most of their intelligentsia that influence their refugee masses in Pakistan from the start of pre-partition history and overall by culture hold hatred for the people who are actually born and from Pakistani lands - those two simply cannot be true together because its?? Quran, Sunnah, Physics, Mathematics, Kalam e Khan??? Just curious?

 

[PK781]

Those traitors at Nadra and Passport Office who issue/make/register FAKE cnic's for afghanis need to be hanged in public. This problem starts at/by Nadra staff, because without a CNIC, you simply cannot get a Pakistan Passport. Even genuine citizens like us need a valid CNIC/NICOP to apply or renew the Pak passport.

Nadra's systems and technology is already at a point where they can easily cancel ALL these fake cnic cards. These fake cnic/passports have been giving us a very very bad name/image in the Gulf, Europe, Far East as well as North America. FIA needs to be more proactive and so should the MOFA and Interior.

Our own people struggling while these overlords come and takeover our entire business plazas and markets? How the hell was that allowed to happen? That money must be sponsoring all the terror. How do these REFUGEES have so much permission to operate businesses and buy properties and all that. Confiscate, and DEPORT them all. No exceptions. There shouldnt be any afghani in any of the big cities, they should all be sent back. Yeah go back and live their lives in their own peaceful afghanland or better yet, go to india.

Charity begins at home. Once our own people are caught up and the country becomes a Paris or NewYork or London, then maybe we can think about opening up visas for foreigners who're friendly and don't want to takeover our lands.

Until then, close the border/doors and show them the door. Any organizations from UN or Amnesty etc should be told to take them all in if they have issues with Pakistan deporting these fanatics/extremists. Why dont they go to their beloved hindutva india or some other country they love? Why come to a place and people they HATE ???
There is "peace" now in afghanistan so its time for them to go back. Can't stay in Pakistan just bcaz "taliban rule", duh, they're their own people so these excuses should not be entertained anymore. The war is long over. Time to return home.

 

[Distant_Observer]

Fake Pakistani passports and implications for national security​

Author: Dr Shazia Anwer Cheema

A 12-member committee at the federal level is already investigating the issue but I am sure only lower-grade employees would be netted even though this lucrative business has been going on in Islamabad for decades under the patronage of almost every stakeholder who is responsible for protecting the country from illegal foreigners.

Meanwhile, Pakistani authorities are getting hold of many Afghans at airports before they can depart for Gulf countries, particularly the UAE, with fake Pakistani passports. The situation is so serious that the interim government has involved top intelligence agencies to probe the issue. This is all done because civil and military leadership have a firm resolve to save the country from total collapse. What would be the fate of this resolve when the interim government hands over the country to elected representatives remains to be seen. With such a strong corrupt administration and avaricious political cadre, I fear we do not have a permanent solution.

A massive crackdown was expected against illegal aliens on the expiry of the October 31, 2023 deadline for voluntary exit from Pakistan. But the government is facing criticism from civil society organizations, also known as liberal left, for repatriating the Afghans back to their country.

There is need to sincerely review the multi-dimensional issues being faced by Pakistan due to the presence of illegal foreigners. It is not difficult to find that every such individual has the capacity and skills to abuse the Pakistani system and play havoc with its reputation, economy and society because Pakistan has been running on “norms” and “customs” instead of rules. The best example is the traffic of Afghans to and from Pakistan who had broad access due to the “Rahdari system”. They did not need travel documents, passports or visas to enter Pakistan because it was the “norm” and “custom” at the Pak-Afghan border. Moreover, this practice was cunningly linked to “ethnicity” issue and the state of Pakistan was bound to “respect” this “ethnic sensitivity”.

Many of my friends working at responsible positions in Gulf states believe that one of the reasons behind constituting a special committee to review the issue of illegal passports and national identity cards (CNIC) bought by Afghans and the crackdown on illegally residing Afghans is that a dangerous situation may emerge for Pakistanis living in Gulf countries. The issue of fake Pakistani passports obtained by Afghans has now become a serious nuisance for Gulf countries and they can launch a campaign to verify every Pakistani passport and such a situation may affect even bona fide Pakistani expats.

The issue of fake Pakistani passports may not be very important for those who live in Pakistan but for people like me who live abroad, it is a very sensitive issue because whenever any Afghan having a fake Pakistani identity is found involved in illegal businesses, we have no justification to tell people that he or she is not a Pakistani but an Afghan. Unfortunately, our state institutions in the past had never taken this issue seriously because of the “Muslim brotherhood” mantra. Even when, the situation has got due attention, our civil society is opposing the state’s decision of legalising foreigners according to international law.

When Afghan jihad was launched, our civil society had one genuine reservation: they feared destruction of our cultural and social fabric although Afghan refugees were allowed to stay in Pakistan on humanitarian grounds. The liberal left fought so hard for 40 years to get the Zia era wrongs undone. But now when this objective seems achievable, they are like following Zia-ul Haq’s Rah-e-Haq and Rah-e-Nejat doctrine. This shift may be appropriate for them but it would surely help undo what Zia did wrong with this nation.

This has been going on for decades. Its big business so everyone has been looking the other away from NADRA to immigration and customs at the airports.

How many larpers are there? In Europe and middle east? They need to cancel all of their passports.

This investigation has been ongoing for years now, they need to release the figures and take action now.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

We don't differ that such individuals exist. We probably differ on the relative proportions of such individuals that exist.

We may also possibly differ on what defines "anti-Pakistan" sentiment.

For me, acceptance of Pakistani sovereignty over its western border constitutes either a neutral or a "pro-Pakistan" sentiment. Rejection of the border, in any theoretical or material sense, constitutes an "anti-Pakistan" sentiment. FYI, all Afghans I have met in the west are adamant that NWFP is "Afghan land" and some "freedom of movement" should exist, regardless of the behaviour of Afghans.

I don't think Schengen rules would be permitted in Europe if Italians were constantly blowing up Austrians or vice versa.

The debate about who is “anti‑Pakistan” outside our borders misses the real point. The deeper tragedy is what Pakistan’s own establishment has done to its people over decades. Our wounds are not primarily inflicted from the outside, they are self‑inflicted, through short‑term thinking, political engineering, and a refusal to build a stable, dignified future for ordinary citizens.

For forty years, Pakistan has been governed like a crisis factory. Instead of long-term planning, we got improvisation. Instead of institutions, we got proxies. Instead of stability, we got manufactured chaos because chaos keeps certain actors relevant. And while the powerful played their games, the public paid the price.

History Has Seen This Before (that’s why it’s important to remember history)

In ancient Rome, the elite lived in luxury while the plebeians struggled for bread. The ruling class spent lavishly on villas and banquets, while the lower classes survived on grain handouts but not in Pakistan. Rome didn’t fall because of foreign enemies alone, it fell because its own leaders hollowed out the state from within.

Pakistan today mirrors that pattern. Our elite live like Roman patricians, insulated from the suffering around them, while ordinary families fight for basic staples like flour, rice, and daal.

India’s caste system offers another painful parallel. For centuries, lower castes were denied opportunity, mobility, and dignity. Their poverty wasn’t accidental, it was engineered. Pakistan has recreated a similar dynamic, not through caste, but through economic and political structures that keep the powerful powerful and the poor permanently struggling.

The World Sees What Our Leaders Pretend Not to See

IMF, Europe, and China are not blind. They see the money laundering. They see the corruption. They see politicians spending money like water, money received through kickbacks and offshore channels, while the awam cannot afford basic food. They see a country surviving on borrowed money, remittances, petroleum levies, and emergency bailouts.

When a nation’s economy stands on such fragile pillars, it cannot have an independent foreign policy. It becomes a client state, shaped by lenders who understand exactly how its elite operate.
In my opinion, Makkah pact may have some short term benefits but it will have far more consequences in long run.

What is Real Anti-Pakistan Force ?

The real threat to Pakistan isn’t Afghans claiming territory, or external narratives, or the proportion of “anti‑Pakistan” sentiment abroad. The real threat is internal decision making, decisions made by those who were supposed to protect the country but instead protected their own power.

Pakistan didn’t collapse because of enemies.
Pakistan collapsed because its rulers behaved like Roman elites and caste gatekeepers guarding privilege while sacrificing the nation.

And the human cost is unbearable, families skipping meals, children dropping out of school, elders choosing between medicine and food, young people losing hope in a country that never gave them a fair chance.

This will be my last post on this topic. There are far bigger issues in the world that deserve attention. It’s exhausting trying to reason with people who are locked into a manufactured reality or who have lived in the West for decades yet still cling to the same old feudal ways of thinking.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Therefore - all Afghans who spout anti Pakistan propaganda are actually innocent because one truth automatically makes the other false.

It is impossible that there is a rotten system in Pakistan supported by elite establishment and also Afghan leaders, thinkers and most of their intelligentsia that influence their refugee masses in Pakistan from the start of pre-partition history and overall by culture hold hatred for the people who are actually born and from Pakistani lands - those two simply cannot be true together because its?? Quran, Sunnah, Physics, Mathematics, Kalam e Khan??? Just curious?

The idea that “either Pakistan’s system is rotten OR Afghan elites influence anti‑Pakistan sentiment” is a false choice. Both can be true at the same time because human societies are complex, layered, and shaped by multiple forces operating simultaneously. Reality doesn’t function on the logic of “one truth cancels the other.” Life isn’t binary; it’s messy.

Pakistan’s internal failures don’t magically erase the fact that certain Afghan political narratives have historically framed Pakistan as an adversary. And Afghan nationalist rhetoric doesn’t erase the fact that Pakistan’s establishment has repeatedly harmed its own people through short‑termism, political engineering, and institutional decay. These truths coexist because they emerge from different systems, different histories, and different incentives.

What is the Core Issue? Pakistan’s Collapse Is Primarily Internal

The real tragedy is that Pakistan’s establishment has created conditions where external narratives whether Afghan, Western, or regional gain traction because Pakistan never built the internal strength to resist them. When your institutions are weak, your economy is collapsing, and your political system is engineered rather than elected, outside voices naturally become louder.

This is not about blaming Afghans as a people. It’s about recognizing that Pakistan’s vulnerability is self‑created.

Please understand that false Binaries Don’t Explain Human Behavior…

History shows us that societies often suffer from multiple pressures at once…

• Rome collapsed because its elite hollowed out the state and external tribes pushed against its borders.
• India’s lower castes suffered because of internal hierarchy and external political manipulation over centuries.
• Pakistan suffers because of establishment failures and regional narratives that exploit those failures.

Human reality is not governed by “Quran, Sunnah, Physics, Mathematics, Kalam‑e‑Khan” in the sense of mutually exclusive truths. You can have:

• A corrupt Pakistani elite
• A politically charged Afghan narrative
• A suffering Pakistani public
• A refugee population shaped by its own historical trauma
• And global powers watching all of this with cold, strategic clarity

All at the same time.
The Human Cost Is What Matters

While elites argue over ideology, the ordinary Pakistani is fighting for flour, rice, and daal. IMF, Europe, and China see the corruption, the money laundering, the kickbacks, the offshore accounts. They see politicians living like Roman patricians while the awam lives like plebeians. They see a country surviving on borrowed money and broken promises.

The real “anti‑Pakistan” force isn’t Afghans, or refugees, or external narratives.
It’s the internal decision making that has kept Pakistan weak, divided, and dependent.

Do you want to see the Truth?
The Truth Is Simple

Multiple realities can coexist.
Multiple failures can coexist.
Multiple narratives can coexist.

But only one thing determines whether a nation survives. the strength of its own institutions and the dignity it provides its own people.

Pakistan’s establishment didn’t just fail to protect the country, it failed to protect its humanity.

 

[Oscar]

Those traitors at Nadra and Passport Office who issue/make/register FAKE cnic's for afghanis need to be hanged in public. This problem starts at/by Nadra staff, because without a CNIC, you simply cannot get a Pakistan Passport. Even genuine citizens like us need a valid CNIC/NICOP to apply or renew the Pak passport.

Nadra's systems and technology is already at a point where they can easily cancel ALL these fake cnic cards. These fake cnic/passports have been giving us a very very bad name/image in the Gulf, Europe, Far East as well as North America. FIA needs to be more proactive and so should the MOFA and Interior.

Our own people struggling while these overlords come and takeover our entire business plazas and markets? How the hell was that allowed to happen? That money must be sponsoring all the terror. How do these REFUGEES have so much permission to operate businesses and buy properties and all that. Confiscate, and DEPORT them all. No exceptions. There shouldnt be any afghani in any of the big cities, they should all be sent back. Yeah go back and live their lives in their own peaceful afghanland or better yet, go to india.

Charity begins at home. Once our own people are caught up and the country becomes a Paris or NewYork or London, then maybe we can think about opening up visas for foreigners who're friendly and don't want to takeover our lands.

Until then, close the border/doors and show them the door. Any organizations from UN or Amnesty etc should be told to take them all in if they have issues with Pakistan deporting these fanatics/extremists. Why dont they go to their beloved hindutva india or some other country they love? Why come to a place and people they HATE ???
There is "peace" now in afghanistan so its time for them to go back. Can't stay in Pakistan just bcaz "taliban rule", duh, they're their own people so these excuses should not be entertained anymore. The war is long over. Time to return home.

That is where the rotten system comes into play.
IT WOULD NOT MATTER IF IT WAS AFGHANS OR NOT.
Have money, files move in Pakistan.
This is true the higher up you go in power in Pakistan and the total lack of public accountablity for the military enforces this.

But, that only enables elements within the Afghan refugee population who simply exploit this system to their advantage and then also go and provide refuge to Taliban, promote terrorism in Pakistan or plain spread propaganda while living in Pakistan against it.

Has there not been exploitation of the Afghan refugee while they were in Pakistan? YES - their programs, their treatment including corruption of funds meant for them.
Instability in Afghanistan, which their apologists wearing Pakistani flags here seem to blame only Pakistan for, was there long before this latest round and would still be there without Pakistan.

However, it could be Afghans(or Sudanese as alternative lest it offend the apologists) for that matter have always had access to an existing market(and help sustain/grow it) with everything from fake CNICs to agents putting in people into family trees - Pakistanis provide their IDs to help Afghan's secure businesses and plazas with the state only interested in enforcing if the elite establishment actually feels threatened(in this because now it is starting to finally recognize them as hostile whereas previously since Uncle Gul of ISI with successive governments all the way to immi K Afghans were Pakistani brethren).


It is a Pakistani desk selling a Pakistani document. The buyer is often Afghan. The seller is Pakistani. Without that stamp, no passport. No CNIC.

 

[Oscar]

The idea that “either Pakistan’s system is rotten OR Afghan elites influence anti‑Pakistan sentiment” is a false choice. Both can be true at the same time because human societies are complex, layered, and shaped by multiple forces operating simultaneously. Reality doesn’t function on the logic of “one truth cancels the other.” Life isn’t binary; it’s messy.

Pakistan’s internal failures don’t magically erase the fact that certain Afghan political narratives have historically framed Pakistan as an adversary. And Afghan nationalist rhetoric doesn’t erase the fact that Pakistan’s establishment has repeatedly harmed its own people through short‑termism, political engineering, and institutional decay. These truths coexist because they emerge from different systems, different histories, and different incentives.

What is the Core Issue? Pakistan’s Collapse Is Primarily Internal

The real tragedy is that Pakistan’s establishment has created conditions where external narratives whether Afghan, Western, or regional gain traction because Pakistan never built the internal strength to resist them. When your institutions are weak, your economy is collapsing, and your political system is engineered rather than elected, outside voices naturally become louder.

This is not about blaming Afghans as a people. It’s about recognizing that Pakistan’s vulnerability is self‑created.

Please understand that false Binaries Don’t Explain Human Behavior…

History shows us that societies often suffer from multiple pressures at once…

• Rome collapsed because its elite hollowed out the state and external tribes pushed against its borders.
• India’s lower castes suffered because of internal hierarchy and external political manipulation over centuries.
• Pakistan suffers because of establishment failures and regional narratives that exploit those failures.

Human reality is not governed by “Quran, Sunnah, Physics, Mathematics, Kalam‑e‑Khan” in the sense of mutually exclusive truths. You can have:

• A corrupt Pakistani elite
• A politically charged Afghan narrative
• A suffering Pakistani public
• A refugee population shaped by its own historical trauma
• And global powers watching all of this with cold, strategic clarity

All at the same time.
The Human Cost Is What Matters

While elites argue over ideology, the ordinary Pakistani is fighting for flour, rice, and daal. IMF, Europe, and China see the corruption, the money laundering, the kickbacks, the offshore accounts. They see politicians living like Roman patricians while the awam lives like plebeians. They see a country surviving on borrowed money and broken promises.

The real “anti‑Pakistan” force isn’t Afghans, or refugees, or external narratives.
It’s the internal decision making that has kept Pakistan weak, divided, and dependent.

Do you want to see the Truth?
The Truth Is Simple

Multiple realities can coexist.
Multiple failures can coexist.
Multiple narratives can coexist.

But only one thing determines whether a nation survives. the strength of its own institutions and the dignity it provides its own people.

Pakistan’s establishment didn’t just fail to protect the country, it failed to protect its humanity.

So you agree then? I am confused what I need to understand.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

One cannot look upon this page; without being struck by the melancholy impression that this nation has, scarcely any true apprehension of its own identity, nor of the maladies that so grievously afflict it.


The people here seem perpetually engaged in earnest debate over matters upon which, in any sensible society, there would scarcely be cause for debate at all.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

So you agree then? I am confused what I need to understand.

You are absolutely correct.