PA MLRS, Self Propelled and towed artillery [BM-11, Fatah-I GMLRS, Fatah-II] - News, Updates & Discussions

[Bilal]

PrSM is under development ...and by LM...so I wouldn't think that to be something we can even get close to.

Correct, but they had the capability for way longer. The only thing holding them back was INF treaty. Right after it was scrapped rightly or wrongly due to Russian club-k all these LRPF projects got started.

Also yes, Chinese PCH191 isn’t 600Km, but it’s heaviest rocket/missile is still in 500Km class.

Looking at how hefty Fatah 2 looks. A 400Km range won’t be surprising. And I hypothesize, it too may be a modular system with pods of varied rockets and missile(s). Including the 250-300Km rocket listed by GIDS and ~150Km class Fatah-1.

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=cmsi-maritime-reports

 

[JamD]

The engineer in me would give anything to be able to see the actual electronic hardware that goes into these systems.

‘Mysterious metal objects’ in Dadu fell from Hatf V missile: ISPR

The metal objects found in a remote area of Dadu were parts of the motor body, which separated from the missile as planned, said the ISPR.

www.dawn.com

lol

 

[Joe Shearer]

Piñaka is a joke.

You could be more polite. Yes, with an extended 65 kms range, it doesn't do much.

 

[JamD]

Correct, but they had the capability for way longer. The only thing holding them back was INF treaty. Right after it was scrapped rightly or wrongly due to Russian club-k all these LRPF projects got started.

Also yes, Chinese PCH191 isn’t 600Km, but it’s heaviest rocket/missile is still in 500Km class.

Looking at how hefty Fatah 2 looks. A 400Km range won’t be surprising. And I hypothesize, it too may be a modular system with pods of varied rockets and missile(s). Including the 250-300Km rocket listed by GIDS and ~150Km class Fatah-1.

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=cmsi-maritime-reports

On a lighter note:

I feel like that that 500 km number if fear mongering but it could be true. It is really on the cutting edge of performance, which is why I am just cautious.


Fatah-2 definitely, looks hefty and I agree it is very likely a modular system like you suggest giving great flexibility for operations.

Also, Fatah-2 was almost definitely not tested at 400 km - I say this because the launch angle was way to steep for that kind of range. 63 degrees based on my definitely very bad analysis lol. But of course, a video can play all kinds of perspective tricks on you. Did we see a NOTAM or nav area warning for this?

 

[Bilal]

Did we see a NOTAM or nav area warning for this?

This is what I was hoping someone will dig out

On a lighter note:
View attachment 6510
I feel like that that 500 km number if fear mongering but it could be true. It is really on the cutting edge of performance, which is why I am just cautious.


Fatah-2 definitely, looks hefty and I agree it is very likely a modular system like you suggest giving great flexibility for operations.

Also, Fatah-2 was almost definitely not tested at 400 km - I say this because the launch angle was way to steep for that kind of range. 63 degrees based on my definitely very bad analysis lol. But of course, a video can play all kinds of perspective tricks on you. Did we see a NOTAM or nav area warning for this?

Ok, here’s another (not so) wild theory and my interpretation of the reference to trajectory in the press release and why simple ballistic trajectory angle may not give full picture about the range:

Pakistan today conducted successful flight test of Fatah-II, equipped with state of the art avionics, sophisticated navigation system and unique flight trajectory.

It may be doing what others have done before, a glide phase in the flight.

Heck, even prithvi could do it

 

[SkunkWorks]

‘Mysterious metal objects’ in Dadu fell from Hatf V missile: ISPR

The metal objects found in a remote area of Dadu were parts of the motor body, which separated from the missile as planned, said the ISPR.

www.dawn.com

View attachment 6509
lol

Hahaha these pictures were the real cause of my wish when I first saw them years ago.

 

[Ak01]

PrSM is under development ...and by LM...so I wouldn't think that to be something we can even get close to.

Chinese exercise with 600 km MRLS is not something I have seen but would be glad to be proven wrong. I feel like this would be stupid long range for any kind of system that can be multiple (more than one).

EDIT: The Ghaznavi is supposed to have a 300 km range.

Based on experience doing these sorts of calculations. What are you basing your disagreement off of?

The key problem is how many Fatah-IIs can you reliably deploy against an S400 battery. An s400 battery might have a hundred missiles. 10 Fatah-II's will do little to distract an S400. There are better things that can serve as decoys such as Azb. If you dont engage the Azb, it is equally lethal. A Fatah-II rocket is going to be expensive to produce and expend.



Great question. The ability of an AD battery to intercept targets is roughly like this (very simplified obviously), intense means higher probability of intercept.
View attachment 6501
Trying to hit the S400 itself will be hard as the region closest to it, is where the missiles from the AD battery will have the highest probability of intercept. Not all targets can have s400 next to them so intercepting the target will be relatively easier. It is all about probabilities and nothing can be said for certain of course.

This may be a bit of a reach- i havent been following at all for a while now but...

Remember the AShBM PN was working on? Perhaps a joint effort like Harbah/Babur? This thing really resembles an enlarged CM400AKG which is effectively a fancier, air launched rocket- similar to rampage but looks significantly longer and thicker, than even a CM400AKG.

Perhaps this could be another 'faaz'?
Take Chinese missile, modify, repackage, boom: indigenous design?

of course, its never as easy as just 'make it bigger', but logically, using the CM400AKG, then doing just that, without the space or size constraints of equipping it to a fighter, and also without the constraints of treaties could maybe make it a possibility? especially if PN can get behind it too and use it as the basis for their design?

We already know its capable of some degree of manoeuvring like ISPR says, alongside that, we also know its got some degree of sophistication within its guidance mechanism... perhaps we have PA's own CM400AKG, soon to be followed by PN's own?

 

[Ak01]

This is what I was hoping someone will dig out

unfortunately i suspect they wont be of much use considering these things are never tested to anywhere near their full range. Even if a NOTAM was put up, the corridor probably wouldnt be more than 150-200km max

 

[Ak01]

On a lighter note:
View attachment 6510
I feel like that that 500 km number if fear mongering but it could be true. It is really on the cutting edge of performance, which is why I am just cautious.


Fatah-2 definitely, looks hefty and I agree it is very likely a modular system like you suggest giving great flexibility for operations.

Also, Fatah-2 was almost definitely not tested at 400 km - I say this because the launch angle was way to steep for that kind of range. 63 degrees based on my definitely very bad analysis lol. But of course, a video can play all kinds of perspective tricks on you. Did we see a NOTAM or nav area warning for this?

second theory they just tested the second stage as opposed to the full system with both stages which would explain the range- probably more realistic than my PN/PA/PAF hybrid story lol. CM400AKG with a booster boom FATAH 2

 

[JamD]

This is what I was hoping someone will dig out

Ok, here’s another (not so) wild theory and my interpretation of the reference to trajectory in the press release and why simple ballistic trajectory angle may not give full picture about the range:


View attachment 6525
View attachment 6528
View attachment 6526
It may be doing what others have done before, a glide phase in the flight.

Heck, even prithvi could do it
View attachment 6530

This may be a bit of a reach- i havent been following at all for a while now but...

Remember the AShBM PN was working on? Perhaps a joint effort like Harbah/Babur? This thing really resembles an enlarged CM400AKG which is effectively a fancier, air launched rocket- similar to rampage but looks significantly longer and thicker, than even a CM400AKG.

Perhaps this could be another 'faaz'?
Take Chinese missile, modify, repackage, boom: indigenous design?

of course, its never as easy as just 'make it bigger', but logically, using the CM400AKG, then doing just that, without the space or size constraints of equipping it to a fighter, and also without the constraints of treaties could maybe make it a possibility? especially if PN can get behind it too and use it as the basis for their design?

We already know its capable of some degree of manoeuvring like ISPR says, alongside that, we also know its got some degree of sophistication within its guidance mechanism... perhaps we have PA's own CM400AKG, soon to be followed by PN's own?

second theory they just tested the second stage as opposed to the full system with both stages which would explain the range- probably more realistic than my PN/PA/PAF hybrid story lol. CM400AKG with a booster boom FATAH 2

Ok all of you have pointed out some great points. Let's pool all of these theories together into one "Grand Unified Theory" lol:
1. Pakistan took the CM-400AKG design and has decided to make it a tri-service weapon.
2. Air-launched: CM-400AKG as is, Ground-launched: Fatah-2, Sea-launched: P282
3. The ground and sea launched versions will get a short-fat, booster.

4. The current Fatah-II was tested without the booster.
5. It is planned to have a second climb phase trajectory.
6. With the booster and without following the second-climb trajectory Fatah-II can reach 400 km.

 

[farooqbhai]

Ok all of you have pointed out some great points. Let's pool all of these theories together into one "Grand Unified Theory" lol:
1. Pakistan took the CM-400AKG design and has decided to make it a tri-service weapon.
2. Air-launched: CM-400AKG as is, Ground-launched: Fatah-2, Sea-launched: P282
3. The ground and sea launched versions will get a short-fat, booster.
View attachment 6694
4. The current Fatah-II was tested without the booster.
5. It is planned to have a second climb phase trajectory.
6. With the booster and without following the second-climb trajectory Fatah-II can reach 400 km.

I highly doubt it is the CM400 AKG. Main reason is that CM400 AKG is just too small of a missile and its been confirmed that Fatah 2 uses a 2 cell launcher while if the CM400AKG was to be used we would get atleast 4 cell or 6 cell config per tel.
Secondly Fatah 2 SSM & Fatah 1/2 GMRLS do not share the same TEL. There is no modularity b/w Fatah 2 GMRLS and SSM TELs.

Range is pretty much alright, ATCAMS is much smaller afaik and of course you always have the Reduced payload for more range type thing that can be done.

 

[Zephyrus]

I highly doubt it is the CM400 AKG. Main reason is that CM400 AKG is just too small of a missile and its been confirmed that Fatah 2 uses a 2 cell launcher while if the CM400AKG was to be used we would get atleast 4 cell or 6 cell config per tel.
Secondly Fatah 2 SSM & Fatah 1/2 GMRLS do not share the same TEL. There is no modularity b/w Fatah 2 GMRLS and SSM TELs.

Range is pretty much alright, ATCAMS is much smaller afaik and of course you always have the Reduced payload for more range type thing that can be done.

fancy seeing you here bro.

 

[JamD]

I highly doubt it is the CM400 AKG. Main reason is that CM400 AKG is just too small of a missile and its been confirmed that Fatah 2 uses a 2 cell launcher while if the CM400AKG was to be used we would get atleast 4 cell or 6 cell config per tel.

Range is pretty much alright, ATCAMS is much smaller afaik and of course you always have the Reduced payload for more range type thing that can be done.

We're not saying that it is but speculating. To counter your argument:
ATACMS versus CM400AKG
Diameter: 24 inches : 17 inches
Length: 156 inches : 205 inches
Mass: 1670 kg : 1000 kg (guessing based on size and comparing with Ra'ad)

Doesn't seem that small to me. If ATACMS is 2 per launcher, I don't see why a CM400AKG derived missile cannot be 2 per TEL.

Also the theory that we were coming up with assumed the addition of a booster. So that would obviously add mass. Anyway, this is just guesswork afterall.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Not my area of interest but I do recall reading about NKs missile test a few years ago. Couple of things I got were that you don't need to test the missile at max range to determine it's viability. For eg. by changing the trajectory means you can test a missile with a hypothetical range of 2,000km with a test range of only 500km (numbers just as an example). Pakistan has done that with its own long range Shaheen missiles too.
Meaning we can't really gauge the range with our limited info of the missile/rocket.
There longest range is achieved using the minimum energy trajectory which is very easily predicted. Lofted trajectory would lob a missile further up in the atmosphere with very steep downward angles making interception challenging perhaps for older AD systems. The depressed trajectory would be the best for avoiding interception as it gives the least amount of time to detect and engage a target. Assuming Fatah systems are capable of that.

 

[falcon34]

Ok all of you have pointed out some great points. Let's pool all of these theories together into one "Grand Unified Theory" lol:
1. Pakistan took the CM-400AKG design and has decided to make it a tri-service weapon.
2. Air-launched: CM-400AKG as is, Ground-launched: Fatah-2, Sea-launched: P282
3. The ground and sea launched versions will get a short-fat, booster.
View attachment 6694
4. The current Fatah-II was tested without the booster.
5. It is planned to have a second climb phase trajectory.
6. With the booster and without following the second-climb trajectory Fatah-II can reach 400 km.

How about Something like CM 401
Its Tel uses 2 pods, Shape is similar to Fatah 2, follows a unique trajectory, Sophisticated guidance system as it can engage moving targets, the range could have been increased because of TOT.