PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Fatman17]

Thanks for the clarification.

With all the news going around, hopefully we get some clarification on squadron strength desired. If the PAF is trying to procure enough fifth Gen fighters to cover the originally planned ~120 F-16 in the 1980s, that could be 7 squadrons (4 Squadrons of of J-31 and 3 Squadrons of KAAN), and the JF-17 is covering all F-7 variants; final strength at 188 (10 squadrons), then the J-10 will cover most of the Mirages (~180). PAF will probably cap its J-10 around 126 (7 squadrons), so it can probably get another squadron of J-31 and KAAN down the line. 24 squadrons up from the current 20, and possibly up to the original 26 squadrons planned in the 80s if I remember correctly. Lean and mean.

Hopefully Pakistan can manage the funds to continue to procure at least 10 J-10CE per year going forward, so the PAF can get to (If I remember correctly, each is around $55 million each); so to procure another 101 J-10CE it would take ten years; by 2035. With hopefully a couple of those squadrons being J-10D (EW variants) and 2 full strength squadrons being able to cover naval support.

Sounds like a tall order but somewhere down the line l feel that F16s will be in the mix. Can't imagine PAF without a western platform.

 

[FuturePAF]

Sounds like a tall order but somewhere down the line l feel that F16s will be in the mix. Can't imagine PAF without a western platform.

True, They will probably hold off on the final two squadrons of J-10s and keep two squadrons of the best F-16s (18 MLU and 18 Block 52 plus 4-6 spares) in the fleet. Also, for political reasons I don’t see them being retired. But effectively, they will be eclipsed once the KAAN fighters are inducted some 10 years from now, by when even the Block 52 will be 30 years old.

 

[Qureshi]

Thanks for the clarification.

With all the news going around, hopefully we get some clarification on squadron strength desired. If the PAF is trying to procure enough fifth Gen fighters to cover the originally planned ~120 F-16 in the 1980s, that could be 7 squadrons (4 Squadrons of of J-31 and 3 Squadrons of KAAN), and the JF-17 is covering all F-7 variants; final strength at 188 (10 squadrons), then the J-10 will cover most of the Mirages (~180). PAF will probably cap its J-10 around 126 (7 squadrons), so it can probably get another squadron of J-31 and KAAN down the line. 24 squadrons up from the current 20, and possibly up to the original 26 squadrons planned in the 80s if I remember correctly. Lean and mean.

Hopefully Pakistan can manage the funds to continue to procure at least 10 J-10CE per year going forward, so the PAF can get to (If I remember correctly, each is around $55 million each); so to procure another 101 J-10CE it would take ten years; by 2035. With hopefully a couple of those squadrons being J-10D (EW variants) and 2 full strength squadrons being able to cover naval support (supported eventually by one squadron of Land based J-31 to provide stealth cover to the J-10 naval force).

IMO, following points needs to be considered...

• JF17 (BLK 1/2) replaced F7Ps, Mirage (3/5) are phasing out with JF17 (BLK 3), while F7PGs are going to be replaced by upcoming L15Bs.
• KAAN is still too far, at least 2035 till it will fly indigenous engine (first test flight is planned for 2032).
• JF17 wont remains till 10 sqds, original plan was to induct 250 (14sqds).
• PAF don't need any EW variant of a fighter aircraft since they already have plenty of platforms to perform the such duties.
• J31/35 will be induct in limited numbers (max 2 sqds) & same with KAAN (max 2 sqds)
• Seems, we will see J10Cs to reach 6 sqds.

Sounds like a tall order but somewhere down the line l feel that F16s will be in the mix. Can't imagine PAF without a western platform.

Yes, F16s remains in the mix.

 

[Fatman17]

IMO, following points needs to be considered...

• JF17 (BLK 1/2) replaced F7Ps, Mirage (3/5) are phasing out with JF17 (BLK 3), while F7PGs are going to be replaced by upcoming L15Bs.
• KAAN is still too far, at least 2035 till it will fly indigenous engine (first test flight is planned for 2032).
• JF17 wont remains till 10 sqds, original plan was to induct 250 (14sqds).
• PAF don't need any EW variant of a fighter aircraft since they already have plenty of platforms to perform the such duties.
• J31/35 will be induct in limited numbers (max 2 sqds) & same with KAAN (max 2 sqds)
• Seems, we will see J10Cs to reach 6 sqds.

Yes, F16s remains in the mix.

Your points point to a lot of clarity. Don't you think that all JF17 blocks l and ll will be upgraded to block lll?

 

[Qureshi]

Your points point to a lot of clarity. Don't you think that all JF17 blocks l and ll will be upgraded to block lll?

That's the way to go, in particular with the news emerging the induction WS-13E engine.

 

[Ali Yusuf]

Your points point to a lot of clarity. Don't you think that all JF17 blocks l and ll will be upgraded to block lll?

That's the way to go, in particular with the news emerging the induction WS-13E engine.

Sir kindly forgive my ignorance, but it took quite an effort and a while to tweak & develop the Block-III. It finally entered service after lots of effort & delays.

Do you think upgrading the previous blocks to the Block-III standard will be cost and effort-wise so straightforward and feasible?

Or will putting our meager resources and earnest efforts into making more Block-III's prove more cost-effective?

 

[Fatman17]

Sir kindly forgive my ignorance, but it took quite an effort and a while to tweak & develop the Block-III. It finally entered service after lots of effort & delays.

Do you think upgrading the previous blocks to the Block-III standard will be cost and effort-wise so straightforward and feasible?

Or will putting our meager resources and earnest efforts into making more Block-III's prove more cost-effective?

Absolutely the cost has to be considered but upgrading older models is the natural thing to do. Look at the F-16 as an example. Upgrades have allowed the F-16 to be a viable platform even after 40+ years and nearly 6000 aircraft.

 

[Malik]

Sir kindly forgive my ignorance, but it took quite an effort and a while to tweak & develop the Block-III. It finally entered service after lots of effort & delays.

Do you think upgrading the previous blocks to the Block-III standard will be cost and effort-wise so straightforward and feasible?

Or will putting our meager resources and earnest efforts into making more Block-III's prove more cost-effective?

According to some reports, only Block-2 will be upgraded to Block-3 level while Block-1 will not be upgraded.

 

[hussain0216]

Are all block 1s upgraded to Block 2 level now?

 

[Qureshi]

According to some reports, only Block-2 will be upgraded to Block-3 level while Block-1 will not be upgraded.

Are all block 1s upgraded to Block 2 level now?

No, both blocks will receive upgrades to BLK3 standards in different phases. However, current priority is BLK3 with WS-13E.

 

[studsmart]

No, both blocks will receive upgrades to BLK3 standards in different phases. However, current priority is BLK3 with WS-13E.

so this ws13e will be part of the blk 3 new build post first 30 examples?

 

[Qureshi]

so this ws13e will be part of the blk 3 new build post first 30 examples?

Indeed....

 

[FuturePAF]

IMO, following points needs to be considered...

• JF17 (BLK 1/2) replaced F7Ps, Mirage (3/5) are phasing out with JF17 (BLK 3), while F7PGs are going to be replaced by upcoming L15Bs.
• KAAN is still too far, at least 2035 till it will fly indigenous engine (first test flight is planned for 2032).
• JF17 wont remains till 10 sqds, original plan was to induct 250 (14sqds).
• PAF don't need any EW variant of a fighter aircraft since they already have plenty of platforms to perform the such duties.
• J31/35 will be induct in limited numbers (max 2 sqds) & same with KAAN (max 2 sqds)
• Seems, we will see J10Cs to reach 6 sqds.

Yes, F16s remains in the mix.

We can’t match in numbers so we e need an “offset strategy”, we need a technological edge. KAAN maybe years away, but maintaining a platform that can get western input is necessary to stay ahead of rapidly advancing changes. Remember the Turks will be facing Grewk Rafales and F-35s; they will come up with a good product. 3-4 squadrons of KAAN down the road, when we are looking at retiring all but the Block 52 F-16s.

As for the JF-17, IMHO, capping them around 188-200, so that larger more capable J-10s can be procured (and down the line a more capable J-10 can be developed and field the export cleared version of the Chinese answer to the AIM-260, probably a 250-300 km missile (export range around 200-225km; 100-120 nautical mile missile), probably supported by a GaN radar shared with the J-31. The JF-17 will definitely need an engine upgrade, but IMHO, should get CFTs, to free up pylons for more PL-15s (the longest range missile its radar can support).

IMHO, we need specialty aircraft like EW platforms to dominate the EM. 36 J-10 dedicated to EW is probably the right mix.

 

[Qureshi]

We can’t match in numbers so we e need an “offset strategy”, we need a technological edge. KAAN maybe years away, but maintaining a platform that can get western input is necessary to stay ahead of rapidly advancing changes. Remember the Turks will be facing Grewk Rafales and F-35s; they will come up with a good product. 3-4 squadrons of KAAN down the road, when we are looking at retiring all but the Block 52 F-16s.

• KAAN for Pakistan won't be available till 2035 & 3-4 sqds are way too many in particular when PAF inducting J31/35s.
• All three branches' procurement adhere to Pakistan's declared policy, which says that they shouldn't be subject to sanctions hence any western acquisitions are accordingly made or will be made.
• Our new F16 C/Ds & MLUed will remain on active duty at least till 2040.

As for the JF-17, IMHO, capping them around 188-200, so that larger more capable J-10s can be procured (and down the line a more capable J-10 can be developed and field the export cleared version of the Chinese answer to the AIM-260, probably a 250-300 km missile (export range around 200-225km; 100-120 nautical mile missile), probably supported by a GaN radar shared with the J-31. The JF-17 will definitely need an engine upgrade, but IMHO, should get CFTs, to free up pylons for more PL-15s (the longest range missile its radar can support).

• The stated/Planned number by PAF of JF17s is 250 in blocks.
• No structural changes in JF17, if there is any then it will be designated as new fighter type.
• WS-13E is pretty much on cards for JF17s, though there were rumors that FC-1 prototype had flown & tested with WS-19 but confirmation.
• CFTs were tested in wind tunnel in China for J10s but no progress was made but that seems on cards if PAF push for their J10s like F16-BLK 52s.
• PAF two platforms (J10Cs/JF17-blk3)forms for PL-15s.

IMHO, we need specialty aircraft like EW platforms to dominate the EM. 36 J-10 dedicated to EW is probably the right mix.

• Dedicated fighter sqd for EW is very unlikely or NIL possibility, PAF already have a platform on DA20 aircrafts.
• Another in the making on Global 6K aircrafts (HAVASOJ) standards.
• PAF have several HALE/MALE drones as well to complement above.

 

[FuturePAF]

• KAAN for Pakistan won't be available till 2035 & 3-4 sqds are way too many in particular when PAF inducting J31/35s.
• All three branches' procurement adhere to Pakistan's declared policy, which says that they shouldn't be subject to sanctions hence any western acquisitions are accordingly made or will be made.
• Our new F16 C/Ds & MLUed will remain on active duty at least till 2040.

• The stated/Planned number by PAF of JF17s is 250 in blocks.
• No structural changes in JF17, if there is any then it will be designated as new fighter type.
• WS-13E is pretty much on cards for JF17s, though there were rumors that FC-1 prototype had flown & tested with WS-19 but confirmation.
• CFTs were tested in wind tunnel in China but no progress was made but that seems on cards if PAF push for that like F16-BLK 52s.
• PAF two platforms forms for PL-15s.

• Dedicated fighter sqd for EW is very unlikely or NIL possibility, PAF already have a platform on DA20 aircrafts.
• Another in the making on Global 6K aircrafts (HAVASOJ) standards.
• PAF have several HALE/MALE drones as well to complement above.

It will come down to the economy. All this can change if we get the economy on track, because it looks like India will modernize to counter China, go to a 45 squadron strength in 15 years. I maybe wrong, which is why the PAF can phase what it procures based on the how the threat develops. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.