Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[Piet]

Based on Iranian officials comments over the years, There are a few prototypes being built of different class engines. However, that will take time to finalize a production ready engine that is sufficient in all aspects including time to overhaul (TTO) and maintenance per hour of flight. Just look at India with its Tejas fighter for the challenges a developing nation faces to join the exclusive jet engine club.
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Regarding the post of an RD-33 engine, this has long haunted me. Does not seem as an Iranian - RD-33 will emerge soon. Considering the veil of secrecy that often involve such developments however, nothing written in stone yet.

The same goes for prototype's of different classes engines.

 

[Piet]

We dont need small or Light CAP fighters for which we will again be begging to Russia and China for parts and everything else. We wont be able to operate them outside IADS cover so what value are we adding to our current capability?

for Light CAP in form of Kowsar, we have accomplished the "absolute indigenousization", the same for IADS assets and drones.

Larger, long-ranged interceptor remains a problem for us. SU-35S remains the solution unless leadership shows balls for once and orders a complete rebuilding-upgradation of F-14 fleet. if each airframe eats up 25 Million USD then so be it. We dont need to operate them every hour, just use them to secure Iraqi air-space which can be a vulnerable zone.

Frankly, as I think as I had noted, show me the SU-35's when they arrive and I will believe it. Other than that, the only other recourse that I see is to absolutely indigenize F-14 as far as possible. Iran simply cannot afford to just ignore the potholes associated with SU-35. Delivery, spares, radar, eccm -E Warfare suite, WVR & BVR missiles etc.

The same goes for any Russian or Chinese supplied fighters, whether in flying condition or not, such as supplying major components for the assembly of an Iranian one.

Piet.

 

[Piet]

I feel he is kinda right because high tech Kowsar is now sitting on the assembly line because of20 Million USD tag while a lower-grade F-5M like program costing 5-8 million USD per airframe could have been much more feasible.

Kind of leaves one frowning.

F-5M is nothing to sneer at in its own right.


The above fighter furthermore has modern radar, B & WVR AAM's, E-Warfare and so forth.

So, if the above a/c is regarded as being a lower-grade F-5M in comparison with high-tech Kowsar, my Q is how higher up the rung this fighter really must be in comparison to F-5M then.

Piet

 

[ToddE]

Kind of leaves one frowning.

F-5M is nothing to sneer at in its own right.

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The above fighter furthermore has modern radar, B & WVR AAM's, E-Warfare and so forth.

So, if the above a/c is regarded as being a lower-grade F-5M in comparison with high-tech Kowsar, my Q is how higher up the rung this fighter really must be in comparison to F-5M then.

Piet

F-5M's radar Grifo-F barely tracks a fighter at around 45-50 KM compared to Kowsar's ~94 KM for 1 m2 RCS target, F-5M lacks high-resolution SAR, Ballistic computers for PGM like strike, has no built-in ECM, no FBW, list goes on and on. Also the datalinking is legacy and limited to AWACS and other F-5M, while Kowsar can exchange track info with entire IADS grid, all types of Drones and other fighters. They are a healthy generation apart.

In Iranian IADS both are barely light CAP fighters category airframes so cant be useful to our doctrine.

 

[ToddE]

Frankly, as I think as I had noted, show me the SU-35's when they arrive and I will believe it. Other than that, the only other recourse that I see is to absolutely indigenize F-14 as far as possible. Iran simply cannot afford to just ignore the potholes associated with SU-35. Delivery, spares, radar, eccm -E Warfare suite, WVR & BVR missiles etc.

We are not dying for fighter jets as our terrain, doctrine is not built around this obsolete "sanctions trap". Israeli fighters jets cant reach even mid point of Iraq even with external tanks so we are not clashing with them and Persian Gulf toy militaries will be destroyed overnight by IRGC's strikes if war starts. Imagine only two 2 FABS of Kingdom of Yahudi-Arabia getting sequential IRGC strikes like what we recently did to Israel. So we have no aerial threat that without neutralizing which our country will fall.

best case scenario for Iran

- Extend IADS into Iraq, train PMU/Iraqi military on HIMADS, SHORADS, integrated search/track assets and connect them with Iranian OTHs/SAT support.

- Recieve SU-35S, Upgrade MIG-29 to SMT standard, If possible maintain and upgrade the F-14 fleet to AM standard on lines of MIG-31BM fleet.

 

[TAC]

Any truth here or just fanboys being fanboys?

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My advice is not to pay any attention to channels like inshort, made up & exaggerated click bate only.

 

[xbat]

believe me, you guys will have an opportunity to test your F5 novadays. then we can talk them about again.

 

[ToddE]

Numbers for one. For an example consider the already-noted 2 or 3 Kowsar to spoils a MiG-29s' day.

A MIG-29SMT with HMD slaved R-73M/74 is a menace in WVR battle. Its a small airframe with 37K lbs wet thrust and a climb rate exceeding 65K feet/min. Pilot can just start its IRST, and switch his Zhuk M off and now the enemy's RWRS/MAWS are no longer telling you where the Mig is if its not in your sight or radar beam. Suddenly it can pop up under or above you or at your back with pilot tracking you with his HMD. Its problem is its short range and limited radar upgrades which they tried covering in MIG-35 (MIG-29K).

IRIAF wanted 72 of these and 24 MIG-31 in 1992, Rafsanjani paid cash to Moscow.

Such WVR battles are a thing of 80s though, times have changed, Airdefences have become more stronger to deal with fighter threats in the sky.

Well, such a development will be good mood, as rightly pointed out countries do not have friends but 'interests', namely their own.

No argument here. See also below.

Kowsar's of the required sophistication, meaningful numbers, other CAP's, CCA's, IADS, and also Iran's comprehensive AD systems.

Kowsar is a LIFT/AT, Light CAP, its job is to saturate IADS and act as mothership for drones, may be BVR combat if need be. Thats it, its nothing beyond that because of its small size. Very good for supporting infantry and launching PGMs from distance e.g. if Taliban start shit up in future that Birjan and Mashhad ABs should have 2 squadrons of Kowsars and 2 F-4E/D Dowran along with MALE UCAVs to deal with them, IRGC can launch its own BM/CM strikes if need be.

 

[Flotilla]

Really Western propaganda? More likely just incompetence and lack of founding!

Even more it seems you are fallen on Russian propaganda so just let me add a few corrections:

- Each model series is becoming more advanced than the previous. ... not really, since they need to add new systems from mini-batch to mini-batch so that there is barely any commonality, but not since they are better, just due to lack of almost everything

- Russia isn’t going to be producing 40+ a year, it’s not the USA or China. It’s building a strategic fleet. ... that's in fact just a lame excuse since they simply cannot build enough and even more so since the Izd.30 engine is still not ready. Or by that explanation, India is surely also building a "strategic force" and only introduce so few Tejas per year?

- The bulk of its [next gen] fleet will be SU-75 checkmate which will have maiden flight I believe in less than 24 months maybe sooner (2025). ... that's at best propaganda again, so far nothing is decided, the type is far from ready and even if a revised prototype may fly by 2025 it will take a decade or more to get it ready; just look at the Su-57!

- There is also the MiG 5th gen project to also consider. MiG faced some problems and was acquired by Sukhoi to avoid bankruptcy I believe. ... no, it is NOT! There are indeed rumours, MiG would develop a new long-range interceptor to replace the MiG-31 but this one is de facto dead.

Yeah. But Su57 is not winning the war. Su34 are the workhorse and in a bit more than 3 months 3 batches have been delivered to RuAF. People is just seeing the carrot but they bulk of the force are Su34, Msta-C and Grads/Tornado/Tos systems.

 

[krash]

South Asian visitors in this thread think that Israeli AF can start a "shooting war" with IRIAF. LOL. Small brain Nibbaz do not even understand that not even a giant F-15 with external drop tanks can reach mid air space of Iran with A2A weaponry let alone be anywhere near Iranian border.

 

[Ali_Baba]

View attachment 71277

Can this operate over Syria without getting shot down? Possibly not, right? Maybe over Iraq since it still has no defensive capability but it has to get past Syria first. Even with Syrias degraded capabilites, a large air refueller like that would be a target and Syria will take shots at it for sure.

It is quite possible that the last mission that Israel did against Iran, was from buddy-refuelling from other stealth jets, thereby allowing to reach the required range while maintaining a stealth cloke to allow some level of operational military capability. If so, then that approach will limit the amount of military capability it can bring to the table due to the need to maintain the logistics of the operation and the small number of stealth jets that Israel has at 39 F35s to date. if 1 jet is used as a fuel muel to get to the target and 1 to get back safetly, then if all F-35s are operational, Israel can at most put 13 F-35s on target. If Israel can operate F15s over Syria and Iraq in a contested environment as fuel-muels, then Israel can put more F35s over the targets.

Given the risks involved, it does seem to suggest a route via the red sea. It means that while aircraft can reach Iran via that route, the combat missions will be long and they will be limited by Israels aerial refuelling capability interms of how many planes it can have on target ( assuming of course that the Americans do not provide "logistical support" ) and the payload it can carry there. Are bunker-busters possible to deploy over those distances given the fuel requirements for ordinance of that size and weight ?

The key barrier to this operation is the logistics to operate an air campaign over Syria/Iraq or the Red Sea. Can Iran hunt down and destroy aerial refuellers??? Does it have the fighters with the range that allow it do that, and that with the required level of intelligence capabilities to locate such assets. If Iran does go for the refuellers, with the Americans shoot down Iranian Aircraft as part of "defending Israel". Focussing on the weak point of Israels operation ie air-to-air refuelling capabilities is what will allow Iran to undermine the attack. That is why having planes like Su-35s/30s are so useful to Iran if it has managed to take delivery of some of them. Even better, Su-57s which would be significant risks to any operating air refuellers though that is one for the future.

We have to for now assume the Sultan of Istanbul will not "allow" Israel to transit its airspace on a mission to attack Iran and will "actively" contest any presence of the IDF over its airspace.

The Yemen route, while poseing some operational logistical issues, is a safer route as Yemen has only been able to shoot down drones so far and not jets ( though they could successfully take a pot shot at an aerial refueller if it came in range).

Israel has serious logistical issues in mounting its operation because when it said "we expect our local allies to help, most of the local allies have so far given the middle finger back in reply to Israel". Getting the middle east countries on side with Iran has been key to limiting Israels choices of attack. It also serves those middle-east countries interests by reducing the possiblity of an all out war, where their infrastructure is at risk from an angry Iran.

Syria and Iraq are key to Israels ability to contest with Iran, so you can see why Israel has been so determined to undermine both countries militarily and economically to date.

Lets see. Israel will reply, but i suspect the scope and size of the reply will be limited by logistical issues and targets will be selected to create the biggest theatrical bang for the buck visual experience rather than a real sustained campaign.

It will be interesting to see what Israel can pull of "alone", and what the USAF will do as part of supporting "Israels right to defend itself" interms of logistical and intelligence support. I do expect a naval/submarine dimension to this due to the logistical issues involved.

All of the above only holds true if the Arab countries do not team up with Israel and USA to attack Iran of course.

 

[Piet]

F-5M's radar Grifo-F barely tracks a fighter at around 45-50 KM compared to Kowsar's ~94 KM for 1 m2 RCS target, F-5M lacks high-resolution SAR, Ballistic computers for PGM like strike, has no built-in ECM, no FBW, list goes on and on. Also the datalinking is legacy and limited to AWACS and other F-5M, while Kowsar can exchange track info with entire IADS grid, all types of Drones and other fighters. They are a healthy generation apart.

To be sure Kowsar in its 'current' iteration is superior to F-5M.

Nonetheless, I am waiting for those Kowsar's stuck on the assembly line to emerge before I form a firmer opinion.

Depending on what the IRIAF intends to use Kowsar for, it would have to be more capable than an F-5AT. Refer also to your post in the old PDF. Some additional info at https://www.tacticalairsupport.com/airplanes/northrop-f-5/ .

Well if these high-tech Kowsar's turn out to be anything like the recent Kowsar info you posted, then I for one would be pleasantly surprised.

Piet

In Iranian IADS both are barely light CAP fighters category airframes so cant be useful to our doctrine.

 

[Piet]

IRIAF wanted 72 of these and 24 MIG-31 in 1992, Rafsanjani paid cash to Moscow.

From where comes the total indigenization drive. Iran should get as much as it can from this current situation as soon as it can. That is, before its 'bromance' with Russia fades away in the face of Western demands on it to cut out Iran, as part of any off-ramp deal.

Such WVR battles are a thing of 80s though, times have changed, Airdefences have become more stronger to deal with fighter threats in the sky.

Quite so. But in the mist of war I venture to say that WVR combat will still take place.

Piet

 

[muhammed45]

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At this height in a war zone watched and tracked by air defense systems and AWACS like fighter jets such as F-14s, you will get shot down by a simple MANPAD or infrared A2A missile.

Non of them will survive if they try refuleing in the air like that and at that height. Tankers are limited by flight altitude

 

[ToddE]

From where comes the total indigenization drive. Iran should get as much as it can from this current situation as soon as it can. That is, before its 'bromance' with Russia fades away in the face of Western demands on it to cut out Iran, as part of any off-ramp deal.

Quite so. But in the mist of war I venture to say that WVR combat will still take place.

Piet

There is no bromance with Russia, truth be told. Russia and Iranian empires used to clash in the Caucasus, my own Azerbaijan was cut in half because of Russians, all these SSRs were Iranian provinces that were taken by Russians during weakness of Iranian empire in 18th century. They are not bad people but their mentality towards us has never been that of an ally and Iranian leaders even of the IRI era never trusted them fully.

I am not against modern-day Russia, we can cooperate in many fields and we are already doing that with weapons exchanges etc but remember we are very different civilizations with centuries-old mistrust between us.