Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[Bentley777]

Regardless of the fact its yj 12 or yj12e . Pak should build its own supersonic crusie missile which can be used by all tri services.i dont know if we can do JV with Chinese in this program openly. Chinese can help us build it because they got all the technological know how and as well as all the there supersonic missile components are indegenious. But would they agree is a big question mark?

 

[Ak01]

Regardless of the fact its yj 12 or yj12e . Pak should build its own supersonic crusie missile which can be used by all tri services.i dont know if we can do JV with Chinese in this program openly. Chinese can help us build it because they got all the technological know how and as well as all the there supersonic missile components are indegenious. But would they agree is a big question mark?

a tri services missile wont happen i think, each leadership thinks its the wisest etc

 

[Bentley777]

a tri services missile wont happen i think, each leadership thinks its the wisest etc

Why it creates commonality and easy logistics support this the wise approach.

 

[Michael]

Regardless of the fact its yj 12 or yj12e . Pak should build its own supersonic crusie missile which can be used by all tri services.i dont know if we can do JV with Chinese in this program openly. Chinese can help us build it because they got all the technological know how and as well as all the there supersonic missile components are indegenious. But would they agree is a big question mark?

You can start by asking Pakistani engineers to try to manufacture CL-20 independently in Pakistan.The explosives in the combat sections of the PLA's in-service missiles are derived and improved explosives of CL-20.

You can then try to find factories in Pakistan that can produce military grade high precision gyroscopes. Can you find one? Pakistan has a military license for China's Beidou Navigation Satellite System, but the missile's navigation system still requires gyroscopes.
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You should consider the issues you raise after a complete examination of Pakistan's current sophisticated industrial capabilities.
The vast majority of the weapons that China can export are available for technology transfer. The prerequisite is that you need to have adequate production conditions and technical secrecy measures, and of course pay for the transfer of technology.

 

[Ak01]

Why it creates commonality and easy logistics support this the wise approach.

it does but its a common theme around the world that one service tends to not want to take on things developed for another service

 

[Bentley777]

You can start by asking Pakistani engineers to try to manufacture CL-20 independently in Pakistan.The explosives in the combat sections of the PLA's in-service missiles are derived and improved explosives of CL-20.
View attachment 81777
You can then try to find factories in Pakistan that can produce military grade high precision gyroscopes. Can you find one? Pakistan has a military license for China's Beidou Navigation Satellite System, but the missile's navigation system still requires gyroscopes.
=====================================
You should consider the issues you raise after a complete examination of Pakistan's current sophisticated industrial capabilities.
The vast majority of the weapons that China can export are available for technology transfer. The prerequisite is that you need to have adequate production conditions and technical secrecy measures, and of course pay for the transfer of technology.

Thats why i said JV with china if we had everything there will be no need for jv and also mentioned will china agree because they will have very less benefit from it. Pak missile program is very less known here no military spokesperson even talks about it. Currect nuclear missile development program stands where no body knowns from in build sub systems point of view . That why JV will be more feasible and we can absorb all the technology and required infrastructure for the development (IDE) of supersonic cruise missile if possible.

 

[RAJPUT]

@Bentley777 @silicon0000 @Awwad @mythbuster @RAJPUT and others....

Tell me something, just for my understanding.

For imported missiles, after certain intervals, is the fuel cell checked and replaced, if required. Sensors checked /calibrated , seals checked, etc?

OR is it kept in storage with silica gel packs in a box till it expires, 10~15yrs down the road, since it's an "E" variant?

Of course every tech product has a shelf life, and the systems are checked and rechecked over time. The training for each product base is included in the purchase price. The technical know how and when to change stuff is also provided with the product.

 

[Hussain]

Of course every tech product has a shelf life, and the systems are checked and rechecked over time. The training for each product base is included in the purchase price. The technical know how and when to change stuff is also provided with the product.

Now lets consider a hypothetical scenario:

I buy something from my neighbor, the good one, you.

Both of us are not interested in ruffling feathers, so we both promise to be good boys, and abide by MTCR.

So you sell me a missile with half a fuel cell, making sure range does not cross a certain threshold.

But boys will be boys, so I swap the fuel cell, as per my requirements.

BTW - Once again, Just a hypothetical scenario, one that could possible turn an "E =Export model" into an "EX=extended range model". Without any OEM restriction, I'm free to customize.

"E" is still there, but to each his own "E" .....

 

[Hussain]

it does but its a common theme around the world that one service tends to not want to take on things developed for another service

any idea why?

 

[JamD]

Hence the shorter route of license production and absorbing the tech from YJ12E, instead of doing it from scratch. If it’s possible.

Sorry for the thread jump but I thought this was a better thread for the discussion.

My reply to that is two pronged:
1. Contrary to popular belief (especially on the other side of our eastern border), even things that we are "license producing and absorbing" like Harbah, Barq, Shaheen 1, Faaz, etc, we are developing in house on some level. Otherwise we would not have seen entirely local products at all. What we do is that we buy some articles from China and in many cases with the express permission to reverse engineer them. Yes, they could give us everything we need for it but that won't build any capability, only the capacity to produce. For example, we bought AR-1s. Then AWC took the exact same aero-shape, mass distribution because they know that that is a design that works. Then they fitted it with their own rocket motor, guidance computer, and warhead - we have the capability to do these things. This is the kind of TOT that happens between Pakistan and China. I think the same is going on with SD-10/Faaz.
2. Related to 1, if we just copied the YJ12E we would just be a production line and we could only ever produce that exact product and nothing more. That is, because of the reasons I wrote in my earlier post, there would be no capacity to innovate as there is in the cases mentioned in point 1. The cases in point 1 have tech that is well known and well understood, thus enabling that techs absorption. There's a lot of trial and errow with scramjets, preventing their absorbtion unless China helps us builds hypersonic windtunnels and testing facilities. Why would they do that?

 

[RAJPUT]

Now lets consider a hypothetical scenario:

I buy something from my neighbor, the good one, you.

Both of us are not interested in ruffling feathers, so we both promise to be good boys, and abide by MTCR.

So you sell me a missile with half a fuel cell, making sure range does not cross a certain threshold.

But boys will be boys, so I swap the fuel cell, as per my requirements.

BTW - Once again, Just a hypothetical scenario, one that could possible turn an "E =Export model" into an "EX=extended range model". Without any OEM restriction, I'm free to customize.

"E" is still there, but to each his own "E" .....

Bingo.

 

[Hussain]

Sorry for the thread jump but I thought this was a better thread for the discussion.

My reply to that is two pronged:
1. Contrary to popular belief (especially on the other side of our eastern border), even things that we are "license producing and absorbing" like Harbah, Barq, Shaheen 1, Faaz, etc, we are developing in house on some level. Otherwise we would not have seen entirely local products at all. What we do is that we buy some articles from China and in many cases with the express permission to reverse engineer them. Yes, they could give us everything we need for it but that won't build any capability, only the capacity to produce. For example, we bought AR-1s. Then AWC took the exact same aero-shape, mass distribution because they know that that is a design that works. Then they fitted it with their own rocket motor, guidance computer, and warhead - we have the capability to do these things. This is the kind of TOT that happens between Pakistan and China. I think the same is going on with SD-10/Faaz.
2. Related to 1, if we just copied the YJ12E we would just be a production line and we could only ever produce that exact product and nothing more. That is, because of the reasons I wrote in my earlier post, there would be no capacity to innovate as there is in the cases mentioned in point 1. The cases in point 1 have tech that is well known and well understood, thus enabling that techs absorption. There's a lot of trial and errow with scramjets, preventing their absorbtion unless China helps us builds hypersonic windtunnels and testing facilities. Why would they do that?

Thought this might interest you:

Notre Dame unveils first-ever hypersonic Mach 10 wind tunnel ​

 

[Bentley777]

Sorry for the thread jump but I thought this was a better thread for the discussion.

My reply to that is two pronged:
1. Contrary to popular belief (especially on the other side of our eastern border), even things that we are "license producing and absorbing" like Harbah, Barq, Shaheen 1, Faaz, etc, we are developing in house on some level. Otherwise we would not have seen entirely local products at all. What we do is that we buy some articles from China and in many cases with the express permission to reverse engineer them. Yes, they could give us everything we need for it but that won't build any capability, only the capacity to produce. For example, we bought AR-1s. Then AWC took the exact same aero-shape, mass distribution because they know that that is a design that works. Then they fitted it with their own rocket motor, guidance computer, and warhead - we have the capability to do these things. This is the kind of TOT that happens between Pakistan and China. I think the same is going on with SD-10/Faaz.
2. Related to 1, if we just copied the YJ12E we would just be a production line and we could only ever produce that exact product and nothing more. That is, because of the reasons I wrote in my earlier post, there would be no capacity to innovate as there is in the cases mentioned in point 1. The cases in point 1 have tech that is well known and well understood, thus enabling that techs absorption. There's a lot of trial and errow with scramjets, preventing their absorbtion unless China helps us builds hypersonic windtunnels and testing facilities. Why would they do that?

No shortest route is not viable to copy yj 12 E. The suggestion was to start building your own supersonic cruise missle program with testing it phase wise and getting Chinese input on it each development cycle of what we can do better and how to do it. No point getting licensed production yj 12 since we cannot get technology which is ultimately stepping stone in the direction of next hypersonic missile which is even out of question right now other wise pak will be in big trouble in the next decade.

 

[JamD]

No shortest route is not viable to copy yj 12 E. The suggestion was to start building your own supersonic cruise missle program with testing it phase wise and getting Chinese input on it each development cycle of what we can do better and how to do it. No point getting licensed production yj 12 since we cannot get technology which is ultimately stepping stone in the direction of next hypersonic missile which is even out of question right now other wise pak will be in big trouble in the next decade.

I think I was unable to explain my point clearly enough. As I said in my post point 1 we do for most systems what I have highlighted in your comment above as well. And then in my point 2 I explained why this is NOT possible for a scram jet. Point 2 was saying that copying YJ12 is all we can realistically do - that is we CANNOT do point 1 for it - and I was explaining why that wouldn't be useful.

 

[Michael]

Thought this might interest you:

Notre Dame unveils first-ever hypersonic Mach 10 wind tunnel​

In the field of wind tunnel research, the country with the most advanced wind tunnel technology is currently China. China's JF-22 is currently the most advanced wind tunnel facility in human history.
The JF-22 hypervelocity wind tunnel has a total length of 167 meters, a nozzle outlet of 2.5 meters, an experimental chamber with a diameter of 4 meters, and an experimental airflow speed range of 3-10 KM/S (about Mach 30).
If Pakistan wants to do relevant research, it can easily apply for the use of this facility. However, the energy consumption of the JF-22 is staggering and the cost of using it once is very, very high. I am not sure that Pakistani research organizations have enough funds to pay for its use. ------ China can provide the facility free of charge for Pakistan to use, but the cost of its energy consumption will definitely need to be paid by Pakistan.
According to Chinese media, the JF-22's instantaneous power is as high as 15,000MW, which is equivalent to 75% of the power generated by the world's largest hydroelectric power plant, the Three Gorges Hydroelectric Power Station. This is a very huge expense.
There are other clusters of lower speed wind tunnels in China,They are also the largest wind tunnel complex in the world, and they are located in my city. It would be very easy for Pakistan to use them.

https://www.cardc.cn/en/

No shortest route is not viable to copy yj 12 E. The suggestion was to start building your own supersonic cruise missle program with testing it phase wise and getting Chinese input on it each development cycle of what we can do better and how to do it. No point getting licensed production yj 12 since we cannot get technology which is ultimately stepping stone in the direction of next hypersonic missile which is even out of question right now other wise pak will be in big trouble in the next decade.

As I said earlier, if Pakistan really builds its own system in the production and development of such missiles, it can try to start with the development and production of basic components first.

The CL-20 series of high explosives are the explosives used in the combat sections of active Chinese missiles. This falls under the chemical industry.

Military high precision gyroscope. There are a lot of countries that can manufacture this, but very few that can get the precision up to a certain level. It can seriously affect the accuracy of missiles, i.e. CEP. missiles made by a certain country in South Asia are often seriously off-target after launch, as a consequence of the lack of precision of this item. Its technical principle is not complicated, but it requires a very, very high level of machining precision.

Of course, there are many other things to master. I won't expand on that.

I too wish Pakistan could manufacture these things independently, but it would take a lot of effort on Pakistan's part. The modern military industry is like assembling a PC. what is the point of building such a production line if all the parts are imported?