I agree, we need to stop stretching beyond our capabilities and hone in on something. We do 100 mediocre/subpar things, whereas we could be excelling in certain key areas. Guided munitions are a great place to start since we can apply the same principles and knowledge elsewhere, rf stuff, ecm, ew blah blah yet we want to make fancy slides and all this other nonsense
JF-17 PFX program
- Thread starter Zarvan
- Start date
But what work is there to be shared.
J35 is a complete aircraft, they will likely be honing on and perfecting it now.
Kaan is still in its infancy but most work is allocated, designs are frozen and progress is being made.
We are too late.
The real area we can work on is the supporting assets. Weapons, drones etc.
Quwa
Research Partner
Exactly. Focusing in also gives the wider industry something to rally behind. For ex., working on guided munitions (especially ALCMs) can bleed into an attritable 2-ton UCAV, which could become the actual national goal.
The PAF can come out and say, "we need 1000 of these UCAVs, and the market demands another 4000." IMO you'll see many private entities pop up to help take on that workload, from composite and aerostructure material makers, to miniature turbofan R&D, and much more.
hussain0216
Elite Member
Which is what I mean, thus we don't have much options for our own weapons and developments except our own project
Since we can't start a brand new project, they are expanding on JF17 project to make use of all the effort we have Input
They will rely on a lot of support from China or Turkey and will seek to replace multiple items like AESA with a Pakistani alternative
MastanKhan
VIP Member
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Hakikat ve Hikmet
VIP Member
My beard doesn't know what's inside my head - Fatih Sultan Mehmet Khan, the Conqueror of Constantinople
Lend your ears to all, voice to none.....
MastanKhan
VIP Member
Michael
VIP Member
What we need to pay attention to is the criteria and definition of “5th generation fighters”. According to the United States military's 4S standard, only the J-20 fully meets this standard, while the F-35/Su-57/KF-21/KAAN only partially meet the standard, but we still call them “5th generation fighters”. This is equivalent to lowering the 4S standard. ------J-35A. According to the current official description, they don't use the term “supersonic cruise”. So we are not sure if it fully meets the 4S standard.
By this logic, the JF-17 PFX was designed to be a “5th generation fighter” under this standard. It is not much different from the KF-21/KAAN.
Pakistan cannot have J-35/KAAN/JF-17 PFX at the same time as a 5th generation fighter. Even if PAF gets these three fighters (in small numbers), he will not have enough money to maintain them.PAF will have to make a choice.
I'm not sure about Turkey. I will only describe the situation in China in this regard.
AVIC and its subsidiaries such as CAC, SAC and other military enterprises, they are all state owned but they operate in full accordance with standard business models and business processes. So, if PAC wants to participate in the J-10CE/J-35 part, it needs to negotiate with these enterprises according to standard business logic.
What work can PAC undertake?
What are the advantages of putting these jobs on PAC?
How would this affect the overall work?
......
If PAF buys 100+ J-10CE/J-35, a few will be built in China and most will be assembled at PAC. Then it is a question that can be explored. But, these fighters are designed to pulse production standards. The initial investment cost of such a production line is very high, where is PAC going to get this huge amount of money and where is PAF going to get the money from which it can buy 100+ J-10CE/J-35s? Let's not forget that the vast majority of the funds for the 20 J-10CE's purchased by PAF were Chinese loans.
If Pakistan does want to be involved in the manufacturing of these aircraft, let's think differently.
PAC negotiated with CAC to get the business of machining some of the components of the J-10CE from CAC at CAC's standards.PAC invested in a wholly owned company in Guizhou Aviation Industrial Park (where the J-10CE is now manufactured). This company utilizes a large number of Pakistani employees (with the possibility of hiring some senior Chinese managers and technicians). This company produces these components.
This company, like other Chinese companies, operates according to standard business logic. It competes with other Chinese companies for the processing of components for J-10CE at the same time.
When this company was able to survive in the Chinese competitive environment on its own, PAC then used a gradual batch rotation of Pakistani employees of this company with local employees of PAC. In this way, Chinese technology and the operation and management mode of Chinese enterprises will be brought back to PAC headquarters.
At the same time, if the company operates well, it will gradually expand its business scope and business share.
Bentley777
Registered Member
It's in public domian that paf is working on pfx no secret and want just basic answers from air chief not core or anything which needs to be secretive.
mythbuster
SpeedLimited
Reasonable chance PFX is smokes and mirrors ..... Pakistan is actually going for J35 Co production .
SiliconBit (silicon0000)
Trusted Member
I'm not sure, but I think you're overestimating the PFX. Even with a slight enlargement and a more powerful single engine like the RD93MA, WS13IPE, WS21, or WS19, it will likely remain in the light fighter category. It's not in the same league as the J-35, KAAN, or any other 5th-generation fighter. In fact, the PAF itself isn't calling it a 5th-generation fighter, but rather a 4.5-generation fighter with some stealth features.
The PAF's operational model is a high-low mix. Currently, the J-10C and F-16 are in the high-end category with limited numbers, while the JF-17 is in the low-end category with larger numbers. Similarly, in the future, the J-35/KAAN will be in the high-end category with limited numbers, and the PFX will be in the low-end category with larger numbers and serve as the main workhorse.
China, due to its requirements, primarily relies on heavy-category fighters. They prefer to have more heavy, twin-engine jets and have a much more offensive doctrine than Pakistan. Pakistan's main workhorse will primarily be required for defending its own country airspaces and point defence, while high-end fighters will be used for selected offensive attacks on enemy (Indian) territory. The doctrine of the PAF and the Chinese Air Force is significantly different, which might be causing confusion.
SiliconBit (silicon0000)
Trusted Member
Better if you ask this in relevant F16 thread dear.
Ali_Baba
VIP Member
Interesting idea ( i like it ) - they would have to change all the mission computers, and firecontrol systems and of course add the radar. Basically do a Pakistani version of the 'Ozgur' that Turkey has for its own F16 upgrade programme.
It will be problematic given the large number of AMRAAMs Pakistan has, and potentially not being able to upgrade them into a home grown solution but with home grown missiles, quite doable. It comes down if Pakistan can develop those systems inhouse under PFX, and then potentially extend their use to the F16 upgrade programme. A locally manufatured J17C airframe with a complete Pakistani avionics suite makes alot more sense to me as a PFX programme.
I am not at all convinced that Pakistan can make airframe structural changes, validate those changes both structurally and with ordance and make the appropriate changes to the Fly-By-Wire systems for those changes for those scenarios.
Michael
VIP Member
I've said it earlier. We call the JF-17 PFX a 4th.5 generation fighter or a 5th generation fighter, depending on how the 4S standard is evaluated.
The 4S standard for 5th gen fighters was proposed by the US Army. But, unfortunately, none of the F22/F35 in service with the US military fully meets that standard. neither does the Su-57/KF-21/KAAN. However, they are all referred to as 5th generation fighters.
As per the previous reasoning, if Saudi Arabia provides the money, China provides the technology and Pakistan takes care of the manufacturing, then there is no problem at all in upgrading the JF-17 PFX to what people call a 5th generation fighter. We would also have no problem upgrading it to equal or even surpass the KF-21/KAAN in terms of combat power. There are more than enough options in the existing technology pool. It's just that the higher-end subsystems you choose, the more powerful they are, but also more expensive. It's up to the military to choose whether to build a lot of cheap PFX? or a small number of high end PFX?
A PFX with cheap subsystems could be called a 4th.5 generation fighter.
A PFX with high-end subsystems could be called a 5th generation fighter.
The J-10 was also a mainstay of the PLAAF in the early days. We didn't have more options at that time.
It is only now, with the mass service of J-20/J-16, that the J-10 has been relegated to a mop-up supporting role.
By the time J-35 is officially in service in PAF, your J-10CE will also become a supporting role for J-35.
The main reason why PLAAF favors heavy fighters:
China is a vast country. Heavy fighters can cover a wider part of the country. We can achieve full coverage of the country with fewer heavy fighters. It also brings the benefit of requiring fewer pilots and fewer airfields. It is a money-saving exercise.
Previously, the PLAAF was practically incapable of achieving complete homeland defense. We had a lot of bad things happen.
