Türkiye, Pakistan deepen defense ties with KAAN jet export, joint helicopter project

[100%_Guest]

why？

bcos it is NOT western or partial white

 

[FuturePAF]

Totally agree!

What the Kaan programme gives Pakistan is a level of progress in military industrialisation that is not possible with China right now. It is not just the technology, it is also the processes, procedures that Pakistan can lean from turkey which help make the industrial design of home grown projects better. Just look at the quality workmanship and industrial design of Turkish products, they are excellent.

Being able to design a product is something is important, but, as we are seeing with India, you have to know how to manufacture these designs at an industrial scale and turkey can help with that.

The methodology can be applied to how PAC goes about developing and manufacturing the PFX-A (JF-17 design improvement) and the PFX (a clean sheet design).

 

[zhanlong]

bcos it is NOT western or partial white

But the engine comes from the West. And... It rarely flies.

 

[Quwa]

I am asking , why naval version of hurjet for turkey since turkey is developing kaan that can be modified for naval version ?

Naval version of KAAN hasn't been confirmed yet. For now, the Turkish Navy is going ahead with a naval version of the Hurjet and Kizilelma UCAV.

 

[100%_Guest]

But the engine comes from the West. And... It rarely flies.

bingo WESTERN=best

 

[FHN]

It’s one thing to build a flying airframe, it’s another thing to have a finished product in serial production.

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

The Chinese NGFA option was on the cards since ACM Aman's time. It isn't an ACM Siddhu thing, though he announced it, I suspect it was in the works before him.

Hence, I think there is a decent chance the J-35A will pan out, and not necessarily due to any legacy antics.

For ex., we don't know the real degree of serviceability of the PAF F-16A/B fleet, esp. as those jets near 50 years of age. As the aircraft age, I think the risk of not flying them as often and other issues will start increasing.

AVIC may have indicated to the PAF that the J-35As could replace the F-16A/B's by 2035/2040 if the PAF commits soon.

The other factor could be to spruce up the maritime leg. The IN's aviation element is a serious threat. So, having a J-35A sqn, esp if certain maritime ops features (such as corrosion-proofing) are all there, could help.

Finally, I don't buy the WS-10G claims at all. I reckon any TFX the PAF gets will use Turkiye's indigenous engines. With that in mind, we're talking about -- at the earliest -- mid-to-late 2030s before the PAF gets its first KAAN.

So, there is an open period through the 2030s. Hence, it's possible that the PAF is looking at the J-35A to shore up its fleet in that timeframe.

I always maintained that any J-35A buy would center on the PAF's offensive wings, i.e., the F-16 and Mirage ROSE. Currently, the PAF is configuring the JF-17Cs to help with those roles (especially strike), but the J-35A is another ballgame.

Basically, the J-35A alone can replace both F-16s and Mirages in the A2A and A2G roles, respectively. Then there's the maritime aspect too.

In that context, where does the KAAN fit in? Well, if we're talking about a variant fitted with the TEI engines, then we're looking at a later block variant.

It's possible that this later TFX block will be more optimized for the strike role. Hence, when the 2040s roll around, the PAF could then center its attack wings on the KAAN as a command unit with J-35As a dual A2A/A2G role and the UCAV (possibly Kizilelma) for loyal wingman and high-risk strike ops.

With all that said, however, when the PAF shifts to the next-gen, the numbers of crewed platforms will go down (as you said).

The 80-unit baseline was valid for F-16 or J-10-type aircraft, but not for the J-35A and KAAN. Not only are these planes both bigger and costlier, but the doctrines for needing them are quite different. They're niche needs: deep strike, maritime ops, OCA, etc.

I can see a potential J-35A acquisition actually reaching 80-90 units, but the KAAN would likely be limited to 40 units, IMO. Maybe replacing the Block-52s.

It all hinges on KAAN production line moving to Pakistan. The more cost effective it becomes, more the chances of increased numbers and shared platforms across different services.

There is a need for a formal treaty... and that has more to do with Turkiye's other commitments... and principally Pakistan's financial obligations to its creditors and the habit of ones in charge to sign them off at pain of sovereignty... or sovereign guarantees.

 

[Zarvan]

Now imagine if the PAF pulls the JFX off. Formidable lineup. Completely sidelined the US after the F-16 fiasco and forged its own path. This is the power of joint ventures and striving for self-reliance. The PAF is the best professional institution in Pakistan.

PFX is basically two planes. First it would be Block 4 which would be something like Grippen E, then it would be JF-17 PFX which is most likely a single engine stealth fighter jet. PAF in recent IDEAS just vaguely gave a news briefing in which they showed a slide which showed this.

 

[mythbuster]

Drones are becoming great equalizers in the military capabilities of the countries , wonder how long manned fighter jets will last .

 

[FHN]

It all hinges on KAAN production line moving to Pakistan. The more cost effective it becomes, more the chances of increased numbers and shared platforms across different services.

There is a need for a formal treaty... and that has more to do with Turkiye's other commitments... and principally Pakistan's financial obligations to its creditors and the habit of ones in charge to sign them off at pain of sovereignty... or sovereign guarantees.

US won't allow KAAN export with F-110 engine just like they did in the case of T-129.US lawmakers were concerned that the T-129's engines could strengthen Pakistan's ability to attack India, a country with a strong defense relationship with the US lol

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

Drones are becoming great equalizers in the military capabilities of the countries , wonder how long manned fighter jets will last .

Not just fighter jet... ANY manned platforms across services.

Future of war planning is unmanned systems and counter unmanned systems. Wars will essentially be decided on who gets exposed first.

So far, both Turkiye and China are spearheading this change.

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

US won't allow KAAN export with F-110 engine just like they did in the case of T-129.US lawmakers were concerned that the T-129's engines could strengthen Pakistan's ability to attack India, a country with a strong defense relationship with the US lol

Alternatives are in the pipeline.

 

[FHN]

Where did you get these numbers from and J-35A will be more advanced than KAAN for sure in every parameter, although KAAN will be a larger and more heavier fighter?

China is one of the leaders in stealth technology.... Especially, material science (stealth coatings)... Turkey is a new comer. This aircraft wouldn't be as stealthy as the J-35.

 

[FHN]

Alternatives are in the pipeline.

Like? China’s WS-15 jet engine started development in 2006 and began mass deployment earlier last year. It's not easy at all.

 

[FHN]

If you don't do all the engineering of a jet engine exactly right, it isn't a matter of "the engine doesn't work as well" it's a matter of "everytime you turn it on there's a non significant chance it eats itself destroying the airframe.