JF-17 PFX program

[Michael]

You will see yourself. As for the money part. Please explain to me where we got the money to order 8 submarines, 4 Type 54 A Frigates, 4 Babur Class Corvettes, 4 Tabuk Class OPV, producing missile boats, JF-17 production, J-10 C induction, Akinci, Wing Long II, Shahpar II, Sea Sultan planes around 9 AWACS out of which 6 came in last couple of years, VT 4 Tanks, wheeled APC, new MRAP from Thailand, HQ 9 for both Army and Air Force, HQ 16, HQ 7, CH-4 Drones should I continue with other weapon systems ? When you find an answer to these than come and question where we would get the money to have 150 J-35. 150 won't be ordered in first go. It would be like 40 will be first order when that is completed may 40 more ordered or only 20 more than 20 more than 20. Like that our final J-35 will reach 100 minimum go way beyond 100.

Regarding the question of where Pakistan's military purchases are funded, I wouldn't advise you to get into an in-depth discussion on this topic.
In fact, this issue is almost transparent in the international arena. Anyone with a little knowledge of international politics and military trade almost always knows the answer to this question, with the exception of most Pakistanis. For example, @Deino, who should know something about this. However, due to the very sensitive nature of these issues and the lack of definitive evidence, people usually don't talk about it.

Many years ago, China also had many very famous military forums. In these forums, there were a large number of non-ordinary members active. For example, engineers from military industrial enterprises and research institutes, officers in the field of military research on active duty, researchers from classified organizations, and so on. A number of serious leaks occurred in China's military forums. Eventually, the government had to force the closure of all military forums in China. ------ Before these forums were shut down, there was a lot of definitive evidence about your issue that appeared in these forums. Now, that evidence has completely disappeared.

Finally, a Chinese sentence for you. “免费的才是最贵的！ Free things are the most expensive things!”

Turks have always stood by us and have always helped us. Our track record with them is similar to that of China, only difference was until a decade or two ago they lacked technology of defense things. In past two decades they have come a long way.

This question, related to the previous one.
I can't provide much definitive evidence.
But what I can tell you clearly is that in the field of military scientific and technological research, Pakistan has given Turkey much more help than Turkey has given Pakistan. This is a 100% certain fact!

 

[Zarvan]

Our interests align more with China than with Turkey for many reasons:

1. We are neighbours and Turkey is not. Turkey fulfills policy of the West and of its own which is not in our interest.

2. China is a superpower. Turkey's economy is worse than Pakistan right now and they have saturated to the point that they now have no option but to expand and use force to survive.

3. China has no political and military ambition in the Middle East and greater Muslim world otherwise they would have played a role with all the wars and alliances going on in the region. For 70 years they have been dependable to support our foreign policy interests and this is crucial because if we have any ambition to play a significant role in the Islamic world, we need a partner who doesn't clash with our interests. Turkey will clash with us. If not now, for sure in the future. All China wants is economic hegemony which is fine because no country including the U.S can compete with them.

Back to topic. I guarantee you they will not give us full ToT for KAAN. It will not happen. They are not dumb people.


I have lived and dealt with them long enough. We Pakistanis should not underestimate ourselves. We tend to criticize ourselves more than we should. I'll leave it at that.

They are equally aligned with both.

Regarding the question of where Pakistan's military purchases are funded, I wouldn't advise you to get into an in-depth discussion on this topic.
In fact, this issue is almost transparent in the international arena. Anyone with a little knowledge of international politics and military trade almost always knows the answer to this question, with the exception of most Pakistanis. For example, @Deino, who should know something about this. However, due to the very sensitive nature of these issues and the lack of definitive evidence, people usually don't talk about it.

Many years ago, China also had many very famous military forums. In these forums, there were a large number of non-ordinary members active. For example, engineers from military industrial enterprises and research institutes, officers in the field of military research on active duty, researchers from classified organizations, and so on. A number of serious leaks occurred in China's military forums. Eventually, the government had to force the closure of all military forums in China. ------ Before these forums were shut down, there was a lot of definitive evidence about your issue that appeared in these forums. Now, that evidence has completely disappeared.

Finally, a Chinese sentence for you. “免费的才是最贵的！ Free things are the most expensive things!”


This question, related to the previous one.
I can't provide much definitive evidence.
But what I can tell you clearly is that in the field of military scientific and technological research, Pakistan has given Turkey much more help than Turkey has given Pakistan. This is a 100% certain fact!

Sir I agree, my problem is with those Pakistanis who keep asking same hilarious question which I stopped asking several years ago. If we see our officially declared defense budget, and we see the purchases which I have stated, nobody can explain or make any sense of those purchases. Still on news of Pakistan purchasing any new weapon system Pakistanis start asking same question.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

They are equally aligned with both.

Sir I agree, my problem is with those Pakistanis who keep asking same hilarious question which I stopped asking several years ago. If we see our officially declared defense budget, and we see the purchases which I have stated, nobody can explain or make any sense of those purchases. Still on news of Pakistan purchasing any new weapon system Pakistanis start asking same question.

You're living in past when $$$ wasn't much an issue but what about current critical economic situation of Pakistan, basically Pakistan is currently bankrupt in many departments

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

They are equally aligned with both.

Sir I agree, my problem is with those Pakistanis who keep asking same hilarious question which I stopped asking several years ago. If we see our officially declared defense budget, and we see the purchases which I have stated, nobody can explain or make any sense of those purchases. Still on news of Pakistan purchasing any new weapon system Pakistanis start asking same question.

You and @maverick are the most immature and ridiculous poster here on PDF specially about induction of J-35 into PAF lol

 

[Zarvan]

You're living in past when $$$ wasn't much an issue but what about current critical economic situation of Pakistan, basically Pakistan is currently bankrupt in many departments

Mr I am not living in past. Many of these things which I mentioned came in past three to 4 years when we were already at our worst. Hardly any of these weapons came a deacde ago. Many of these weapon systems came in past two to three years and many more orders are being placed. And even back than you used to be in denial. It's your denial which is the issue here not dollars. On every weapon system you ask the same question.

 

[Zarvan]

You and @maverick are the most immature and ridiculous poster here on PDF specially about induction of J-35 into PAF lol

I am not immature you are in denial mode. You want to act like an ostrich even on good news. You have seen how fast we inducted J-10, how we ordered and have inducted submarines, Frigates, Corvettes, Tanks, APC, MRAP, drones, and several other weapon systems but you still act the same in your denial zone.

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Mr I am not living in past. Many of these things which I mentioned came in past three to 4 years when we were already at our worst. Hardly any of these weapons came a deacde ago. Many of these weapon systems came in past two to three years and many more orders are being placed. And even back than you used to be in denial. It's your denial which is the issue here not dollars. On every weapon system you ask the same question.

You still living in deletional most of the projects you refer was deals signed in past 10-15 years ago like 8 subs/ Type 54 A frigate, only/ missile boats/ opv etc etc, relatively few big item purchase from post ik era, like HQ-9/Sea-Sultan/ J-10C and may be VT-4, I don't consider UCAVs purchase as big ticket purchase

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

I am not immature you are in denial mode. You want to act like an ostrich even on good news. You have seen how fast we inducted J-10, how we ordered and have inducted submarines, Frigates, Corvettes, Tanks, APC, MRAP, drones, and several other weapon systems but you still act the same in your denial zone.

You're living in fantasy world most of these purchase deals signed 10- 15 years ago, you're definitely immature person and have no ability to analyze situation deeply and critically lol

 

[Anatolian]

But what I can tell you clearly is that in the field of military scientific and technological research, Pakistan has given Turkey much more help than Turkey has given Pakistan. This is a 100% certain fact!

Interesting, can you eloborate on this more?

 

[Zarvan]

You still living in deletional most of the projects you refer was deals signed in past 10-15 years ago like 8 subs/ Type 54 A frigate, only/ missile boats/ opv etc etc, relatively few big item purchase from post ik era, like HQ-9/Sea-Sultan/ J-10C and may be VT-4, I don't consider UCAVs purchase as big ticket purchase

Type 54 A Frigates, Babur Class and Tabuk OPV are not so old. So please so are HQ 9 for both Army and Air Force, plus drones and VT 4 and APC and MRAP but please continue to remain in denial

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Type 54 A Frigates, Babur Class and Tabuk OPV are not so old. So please so are HQ 9 for both Army and Air Force, plus drones and VT 4 and APC and MRAP but please continue to remain in denial

Do you know when we signed the deal of Type 54 frigates? And babar and opv, do research before you post crap and nonsense here

Sorry dude your mental disability has no cure

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Type 54 A Frigates, Babur Class and Tabuk OPV are not so old. So please so are HQ 9 for both Army and Air Force, plus drones and VT 4 and APC and MRAP but please continue to remain in denial

Denial is a self defense mechanism, especially if you're chicken hearted not to boldly face the Hakikat with Hikmet! Bharati folks are constantly bombarded with the notion that they're super smart and super cunning! Moreover, Pakistan is like a trash!! So, if anything goes in contrary they get cognitively frozen and stop trying to get out of the hurdles with efforts.....

On the other hand, Pak is like in the "Eat grass but have the BOMB" mode on a 24/7 basis! It implies they're ready to absorb "infinite pains" to achieve their goals....

It's a pure psychology text book case. The Bharati Deep State is in a "self-praise*" state, and the Pak Deep State" is in a "self-efficacy" state.....

*By definition, a Muslim can't be is this mental state. Elhamdulillah, he's always in a "Sabr and Shukr enveloping constant Mujadele" state with Iman and Ihlas.

**Genius is nothing but infinite capacity to take pains - Samuel Smiles (Life and Labor)

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Denial is a self defense mechanism, especially if you're chicken hearted to boldly face the reality! Bharati folks are constantly bombarded with the notion that they're super smart and super cunning. Moreover, Pakistan is like trash!! So, if anything goes in contrary they get cognitively frozen, and stop trying to get out of the handles with efforts.....

On the other hand, Pak is like in "Eat grass but have the BOMB" mode on a 24/7 basis! It implies they're ready to absorb "infinite pains" to achieve their goals....

It's pure psychology text book case. The Bharati Deep State" is in a "self-praise*" state, and the Pak Deep State" is in a "self-efficacy" state.....

*By definition, a Muslim can't be is this mental state. He's always in a "Sabr and Shukr enveloping constant Mujadele" state with Iman and Ihlas.

I'm not Indian but a Pakistani sir which believe in reality and history most of @Zarvan posts refer to those projects deals when $$$ wasn't much a problem for Pakistan (post 2010), but currently Pakistan is in jeopardy

 

[Oscar]

I'm not Indian but a Pakistani sir which believe in reality and history most of @Zarvan posts refer to those projects deals when $$$ wasn't much a problem for Pakistan (post 2010), but currently Pakistan is in jeopardy

There is a thread you can unravel until you find nothing - post 2010 Pakistan was in dire straits to the extent that by 2011 there wasn’t enough money to pay the bill interest on the loans for JF-17 and other projects - forget the principal.

Then - Pakistan starts to be able to afford things again in a slew of purchases - suddenly we have FATF(all for reasonable demands to remove loopholes that cause Pakistani economy harm as well) seemingly to curb an out of control terror financing situation - Pakistani purchasing slows down.

Now, the only money truly going back and forth in Pakistan is land money - which means it’s available for indigenous efforts and non import items because just until a few months ago Letters of credit for anything were unavailable - but everything else is to a trickle unless you’re importing luxury cars.

So Hazrat has misplaced optimism due to certain historical events and circumstances - but the reality is that Pakistan is running on fumes and any military purchases are running on liquid assets accumulated abroad from a few years ago providing to sources willing to accept those - all other purchases have to wait for a good economy.

 

[Jango]

And that’s the real kicker. PAF is trying to do all these things at once—upgrade the JF-17, integrate J-10Cs, field the J-35, cozy up to Turkey, and now build PFX. Where’s the money, the manpower, and the organizational discipline for all this?

This is what I am wondering? Where do we get the money, and then the manpower from?

Fauj kay pas training kay liay paisa nhn hota (at some time in the not so distant past), and PAF is on a spree.

Is China really giving us that many loans? For what though? Just to counter India?