Pakistan, the IVC, and a Land of continuous migration and mixing

[Joe Shearer]

There is a difference in discussing nations, people and their religious choices AND outright discussing religion itself.

"Ireland had been Catholic and made Catholicism as its national identity and major religion of people." -- discussion is about ireland and its people.

"Scientology believes are basically a perversion of original teaching its founder, L Ron Hubbard. David Miscarige has squirrelled Scientology!" -- Religious discussion.

Reasonable, but it will be an uphill task to ensure that all in the discussion realise these distinctions. The task is that of the person who posts on EITHER theme. By the time the moderators are brought into the picture, usually there is already a raging flame.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The Sintashta, ancestors of Indo-Aryans, invented chariots for warfare, so for sure they weren't a very peaceful bunch.

A small supplement - early carriages on the steppes may have been cattle-drawn, and may have facilitated the wanderings of the steppe people. As you have mentioned the Sintashta, you are already aware that they got there after long years, centuries, spent in wandering, first, on an eastward wave out of their earlier westward movement into Europe, and after the Beaker People are found, then, by various paths, not all uniform, to the Sintashta location. It is possible that the Tokharians, an apparently Centum people, went east, instead of west, like all other Centum people.

Of course, here the discussion is marginally about the Satem people, their three-fold division into Mitanni, Indo-Aryan speakers and Indo-Iranian speakers. Just thought to clarify that reference to war chariots, whose appearance in the sequence of development of wheeled transport is probably difficult to establish in terms of precedence.

I am in complete agreement with all your other points, except one - it is possibly the experience of Europe and the cataclysmic inroads into the Roman Empire of the Germanic Tribes that may have influenced British historians of India's history, proto-history and pre-history to visualise the incursion of the steppe migrants into India as similar. The Aryan Invasion Theory has been so savagely attacked that nobody in Academe wants to stand anywhere close to it. Part of it is rightly dismissed as the ravings of the Out Of India school, but there is still visible aversion to the naming.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I will leave up to the mods to decide which one they want to keep and which one they want to disallow.

No. This is for the people discussing to explain to each other. This cannot be 'legislated'.

 

[AjayGhatak]

No. This is for the people discussing to explain to each other. This cannot be 'legislated'.

For a 55 year old, you sometimes tend to be very naive. Everything is legislated.

 

[Joe Shearer]

For a 55 year old, you sometimes tend to be very naive. Everything is legislated.

75 year old.
Impertinence no longer engages my attention, beyond a single line response at best.

 

[Maira La]

A small supplement - early carriages on the steppes may have been cattle-drawn, and may have facilitated the wanderings of the steppe people. As you have mentioned the Sintashta, you are already aware that they got there after long years, centuries, spent in wandering, first, on an eastward wave out of their earlier westward movement into Europe, and after the Beaker People are found, then, by various paths, not all uniform, to the Sintashta location. It is possible that the Tokharians, an apparently Centum people, went east, instead of west, like all other Centum people.

You seem to have a very good knowledge of this topic. Wheeled carts and wagons (cattle/ox drawn?) are indeed found among older IE culture in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (the Yamnaya). And the Sintashta do descend from the groups that first migrated westward into Europe, giving rise to the Corded Ware culture, migrants from which in turn headed eastward and gave rise to the Fatyanovo culture (in the area that is now Russian Europe), who I guess spoke a language ancestral to both Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranians.

The Tokharians likely descend from Afanasievo, a group that split very early from Yamnaya and headed eastward towards the Altai. That likely explains the centum (ancestral) / satem divide between these two groups - the Sintashta and Tokharians come from two distinct migratory events out of 'Europe'.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... Hindu women cover their breasts today, whereas in pre-Islamic times uncovered breasts wasn't a taboo. ...

Really? Is that actually true or is that some stereo type as a result of the naked ancient statues?

 

[Maira La]

Really? Is that actually true or is that dome stereo type as a result of the naked ancient statues?

There's no evidence of uncovered breast being a taboo among ancient South Asians. At least not known to me.
No judging, I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing.

Here's a picture of a Kerala Brahmin woman from early last century. Hope I'm not violating forum policy:



Also Hindu women from Bali who are least affected by Abrahamic influence:

 

[Joe Shearer]

You seem to have a very good knowledge of this topic. Wheeled carts and wagons (cattle/ox drawn?) are indeed found among older IE culture in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (the Yamnaya). And the Sintashta do descend from the groups that first migrated westward into Europe, giving rise to the Corded Ware culture, migrants from which in turn headed eastward and gave rise to the Fatyanovo culture (in the area that is now Russian Europe), who I guess spoke a language ancestral to both Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranians.

The Tokharians likely descend from Afanasievo, a group that split very early from Yamnaya and headed eastward towards the Altai. That likely explains the centum (ancestral) / satem divide between these two groups - the Sintashta and Tokharians come from two distinct migratory events out of 'Europe'.

Nothing to add to this. Thanks.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There's no evidence of uncovered breast being a taboo among ancient South Asians. At least not known to me.
No judging, I'm not suggesting that's a bad thing.

Here's a picture of a Kerala Brahmin woman from early last century. Hope I'm not violating forum policy:

View attachment 96272

Also Hindu women from Bali who are least affected by Abrahamic influence:
View attachment 96273

Completely right, but as in all cultures spread over a large area, there were variations.

 

[AjayGhatak]

75 year old.

Man! You are as old as my gramps! I have to be careful talking to you

 

[Nilgiri]

Reasonable, but it will be an uphill task to ensure that all in the discussion realise these distinctions. The task is that of the person who posts on EITHER theme. By the time the moderators are brought into the picture, usually there is already a raging flame.

Perhaps I will just wait for when @Snake is ready to recommence on his "no politics" IVC thread.

I will curate that one to keep it politics free so we may at least get some order of first principles discussion that always gets submerged quickly in the typical IVC threads that come up.

I also skipped past a lot of pages in this one when I saw where its headed and basically picked up attention when oscar started to post....as he has long displayed a very coherent and consistent logic and analysis spanning many subjects.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Man! You are as old as my gramps! I have to be careful talking to you

I've been hinting at this for ages. <sigh> as if young punks listen.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Perhaps I will just wait for when @Snake is ready to recommence on his "no politics" IVC thread.

I will curate that one to keep it politics free so we may at least get some order of first principles discussion that always gets submerged quickly in the typical IVC threads that come up.

I also skipped past a lot of pages in this one when I saw where its headed and basically picked up attention when oscar started to post....as he has long displayed a very coherent and consistent logic and analysis spanning many subjects.

He saved the discussion.

Can I attend to other threads, leave this one to you and Krptonite, please?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sorry but Many people won't agree with you

The deep roots of Hinduism

A common belief is that Hinduism originated in Vedic times. But it is much older, and its probable story is non-linear, diffused, and complex, as the following attempts to show. Hinduism’s roots go far back...

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Have you read it, and are you able to spot the errors? Or do you habitually swallow such pieces like baby food?

I could do a detailed analysis, at the cost of boring every other member.