Turkish Foreign Policy and Regional Geopolitics

[Foinikas]

Thats not what I mean, what Dendias is doing is constantly badmouthing Turkey and antagonizing Turkey. You have a misreading, its the antagonism that triggers reaction, some little minion yapping and then you decide ok, this mofo needs to be taught a lesson for his insolence.

Again,I'm telling you,all this is a reaction to whatever Turkish provocative rhetoric or action. That's what it is. And hold on a minute,once more I have to ask why do you get so riled up? You just said "this mofo needs to be taught a lesson for his insolence". What's this all about? Who are you to say that? Don't tell me I'm making it personal,when you're supposed to be an American,I wonder why would you say something like that.

Mind you, this yapping has been completely ineffective as Greece has been outmaneuvered at every step and there has been no significant change, if anything the momentum is going the other way, where Greece's allies ignore Greece and carry on doing whats in their own interests.

That's because of a general lack of action in the geopolitical arena by the Greek government. Ever since the economic crisis,all governments couldn't look at the big picture,they just ...I don't know how to explain it in english. They didn't have a bigger plan. And by bigger plan I'm not saying they anything expansive or megalomania,I'm just saying they should be one move ahead. Turkey has smashed us in the influence arena. Of course,you'll tell me it makes sense. By mid-2010 Turkey's economy,defence industry and foreign investments had reached a point where it was so easy for Turkish diplomacy to gain influence in the entire region. And Turkey was extremely active and smart on this. What's this? Bosnia? Ottoman ties. What's that? Albania? Ottoman ties. Kosovo? We helped you gain independence. Azerbaijan,brothers. What's that,Libyan islamists? Qatari friends? Syrian islamists? Turkic world? Muslim world?

Turkish politicians and Turkish propaganda machine has been active and succesful in promoting Turkey as a kind of "ruling Muslim nation" or at least one of the best examples for the common Muslim to look up to,whether he's in the Balkans,in the Levant,in Turkestan,in Malaysia,in Indonesia etc.

Meanwhile,our guys were lazy. Without real vision. Of course we had huge problems. No money,Armed Forces left behind,political scandals destroying the country. And one more thing: No charismatic politicians.

The time of Andreas Papandreou and Konstantinos Mitsotakis or others,was gone.

Now it was like "Hey....Serbs are our best friends in the Balkans,shouldn't we...?" and our politicians would be like "nah,they pro-Russian,we want USA and EU to like us,forget them". Turkey is going to Libya....Greece,too little,too late as always tries have connections with Haftar. The Syrian government is in good terms with Greece,should we help them? No,they are friends of Putin and Iran,the EU considers Assad a "dictator",we must be on the "right side of history".

No real vision. Only when Erdogan had ruined Turkey's relations with almost everyone in the region and half of Europe,USA,Russia and Turkey's economy was collapsing fast...only then did we have great relations with others and Dendias was running here and there making more and more friends. It was then that this quote started being used all the time: "We are building strong alliances"....you would hear it again and again from time to time. Greece is building strong alliances! Greece is becoming stronger,with powerful alliances and dependable allies.

And then of course Erdogan folded and started asking for friendship everywhere. No dictators,only friends. And we remained at the "yes,yes,we are building strong alliances"

Like right now, he goes to Washington completely unprovoked and starts bad mouthing Turkey and even uses Anti Muslim tropes and BS, will it have any effect policy wise? probably not, but it did infuriate people in Turkey. Shit like Greece Cares about "women's rights", Turkey is Islamic etc etc. OMG they supported the Central Powers in WW1, like WTF is this BS. It's not gonna have any effect but it pisses people off in Turkey, right after there was a meeting with the foreign ministers that was generally viewed as positive and constructive, there has been any incidents between Greece and Turkey for a while, and this guy starts throwing attacks as a defense minister(seriously he is out of pocket, he thinks he is Prime Minister or Foreign Minister)

No,no...it's not unprovoked. It's because the Turkish government started turning around again,getting back to the old claims.

You see,before the elections in Turkey and Greece in 2023,Erdogan started acting like a friend. Suddenly he went from Mitsotakis yok,to Kyriakos my friend. Seeing all this,our government started getting cozy,thinking let's talk,let's solve things diplomatically.

Meanwhile,Turkey stalled things for a more than 1,5 years and kept arming like crazy,while we froze or postponed all major weapons purchases and defence programs. Since summer 2023 to now,all we managed to do with Turkey was to "agree that we disagree". Now that the Turkish economy is a bit better,the Americans and Germans lifted the embargos and Turkey has been winning everywhere geopolitically,
the old narration and provocations have appeared again. Turkish ships harassing Italian research vessels that work under greek contracts INSIDE Greek territory. Bahceli freely goes around talking about "illegal occupation of islands",Erdogan implies things...

We're going back where we started.

 

[hyperman]

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Well this is very interesting.. lol

 

[hyperman]

You see,before the elections in Turkey and Greece in 2023,Erdogan started acting like a friend. Suddenly he went from Mitsotakis yok,to Kyriakos my friend. Seeing all this,our government started getting cozy,thinking let's talk,let's solve things diplomatically.

There is a very different perspective from the Turkish Side, its wasn't elections or anything, what changed the momentum was the Ukraine war, It was Greeks and Mitsotakis that did a change seeing the momentum shift. The Ukraine was reenforced the Strategic significance of Turkey to the Western Policy makers. I remember when Dendias was talking shit about Turkey regarding Ukraine, out of frustration over the momentum change and Cavusoglu making a comment on the matter of him being butthurt about the new found policy change in western circles. The TB2s and weapons support to Ukraine as well as Turkish led Istanbul mediation on top of the Grain deal, showed the significant and importance of Turkey in the region. That shift is what forced Greece to reassess, their "maximum pressure" antagonistic campaign wasn't working, so now they switch gears, atleast Mitsotakis did, Dendias is still pist and acting like its pre 2022.

 

[hyperman]

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I'm waking up to all sorts of news stories. First the US announces a withdrawal from Europe, and now this. We are truly living in interesting times...

 

[Foinikas]

There is a very different perspective from the Turkish Side, its wasn't elections or anything, what changed the momentum was the Ukraine war, It was Greeks and Mitsotakis that did a change seeing the momentum shift. The Ukraine was reenforced the Strategic significance of Turkey to the Western Policy makers. I remember when Dendias was talking shit about Turkey regarding Ukraine, out of frustration over the momentum change and Cavusoglu making a comment on the matter of him being butthurt about the new found policy change in western circles. The TB2s and weapons support to Ukraine as well as Turkish led Istanbul mediation on top of the Grain deal, showed the significant and importance of Turkey in the region. That shift is what forced Greece to reassess, their "maximum pressure" antagonistic campaign wasn't working, so now they switch gears, atleast Mitsotakis did, Dendias is still pist and acting like its pre 2022.

It the disaster and then the elections. That was it.

Are you seriously saying "maximum pressure" antagonistic campaign? Seriously? We are the underdog here,small population,Armed Forces left behind,economy destroyed,we've got a Turkey that wants to become a regional superpower and we shouldn't do anything to prevent Erdogan from surrounding us?

 

[hyperman]

Are you seriously saying "maximum pressure" antagonistic campaign? Seriously? We are the underdog here

Thats what Greece thinks its doing, it thinks it can make Turkey "submit" sitting on the Shoulders of the EU, US, France, Germany, Netherlands, etc.

Mitsotakis went to Washington to antagonize by riling up Senators against Turkey on the F-16 deal, trying to get Bob Menendez to attack Turkey, at every step Greece tries to turn any interaction with the US, EU into a bargaining/pressure tactic. They tried it by using Germany and the beef over the PKK, and encouraged them to use that issue to block Submarines(something completely unrelated to naval matters or Greece).

Dendias talking smack recently.

it hasn't worked, infact its gotten weaker, people that backed them before are now turning away and declining, in the case of Egypt, Syria and even France saying they won't block the sale, but they keep antagonizing.

Greece is not threatening to block Turkey relations with the EU, as if they weren't doing that from before since the 2000s, even bringing in Syria, now they are trying to block Syrian sanctions removal. These things will have diminishing returns.

The Greeks haven't come to the realization yet that in the long run these things will become less and less relevant, and that this approach won't work, and whats needed is dialogue and confidence building measures, not a weaponization of the EU against Turkey, or other things, the EU itself is becoming weaker as an institution.

 

[Foinikas]

Thats what Greece thinks its doing, it thinks it can make Turkey "submit" sitting on the Shoulders of the EU, US, France, Germany, Netherlands, etc.

Mitsotakis went to Washington to antagonize by riling up Senators against Turkey on the F-16 deal, trying to get Bob Menendez to attack Turkey, at every step Greece tries to turn any interaction with the US, EU into a bargaining/pressure tactic. They tried it by using Germany and the beef over the PKK, and encouraged them to use that issue to block Submarines(something completely unrelated to naval matters or Greece).

Can you blame us? Look at the Turkish government rhetoric back then:

 

[hyperman]

Can you blame us? Look at the Turkish government rhetoric back then:

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Those comments were made in reaction to Greece militarizing islands and other matters. but regardless.

Ok, well things are calm after the Ukraine war, why is Dendias randomly talking smack?

 

[Foinikas]

Those comments were made in reaction to Greece militarizing islands and other matters. but regardless.

Man come on,you know this was an excuse. There's no serious "militarization" of islands. Unless you consider a few M1117 Guardian and M113s a threat. Besides,the islands have had tiny garrisons for decades and Turkey only started nagging about it now.

Ok, well things are calm after the Ukraine war, why is Dendias randomly talking smack?

Turkey provokes again: It sent a corvette north of Crete​

In order to monitor NG Worker's investigations for the laying of the Crete - Cyprus electricity interconnection cable​

A repeat of the Italian research vessel’s investigations north of Crete, as Turkey has once again sent a corvette to monitor the NG Worker’s investigations for the laying of a cable for the Crete-Cyprus electrical interconnection.

The Greek Authorities issued two NAVTEXs for investigations by the NG Worker and Ievoli Relume vessels in the same area where both NAVTEXs had been issued about ten days ago, north of Crete, in an area of international waters.


At the time, Turkey had dispatched a corvette, which monitored the two research vessels from a distance and harassed them by radio with the provocative message that this was an area of “undefined territory”, which does not belong to Greek jurisdiction. A message that was recorded as support for the “Blue Homeland” theory, which maps Turkey’s claims up to the middle of the Aegean Sea and, at the same time, states the Turkish position that no work – not even that which falls under freedom of the seas and is not related to the continental shelf – can take place in the Aegean unless there is a prior delimitation of the continental shelf. Sources in the Turkish Defense Ministry had even stated that there are Turkish interests in the area (north of Crete) and that no fait accompli would be accepted by Greece.


Of the two new NAVTEX, one, concerning the Ievoli Relume, remained inactive, as the ship remained in the port of Heraklion. However, the start of operations of the NG Worker, which in the morning was sailing north of Heraklion at a distance of 1-3 nm. out of territorial waters, again prompted the mobilization of Turkey, which has sent a corvette monitoring from a distance of 15-20 nm, without so far any radio interference. A Greek warship is also sailing in the area.

Turkey provokes again: It sent a corvette north of Crete - ProtoThema English

In order to monitor NG Worker's investigations for the laying of the Crete - Cyprus electricity interconnection cable

en.protothema.gr

On top of that,you have Bahceli going around like this:

Turkish provocative again: They took the Dodecanese from Turkey, Athens should be careful​

Erdogan's government partner comments on reports about the transfer and installation of missile systems for the defence of the Greek islands - "The results of Greece's actions will be heavy",​

Devlet Bahceli, the nationalist far-right leader of the MIR and government partner of the Turkish president, Devlet Bahceli, appeared defiant, putting the Dodecanese squarely in his crosshairs. In remarks after his party’s parliamentary meeting, Bahceli said “there has been a usurpation of the Dodecanese, which were taken (by Turkey) with games”, adding that it is inconceivable “for Turkey to live without the Dodecanese”.


These extreme statements by Bahceli were made in response to reports in the Turkish press that refer to the installation of missile systems by Greece for the defense of its islands.

Bakhcheli, who also made specific references to the process of rapprochement with the Kurds, and to dealing with the PKK, said:“It is foolish to believe that the problems will end if we ignore them… Turkey is a very strong state. It has the courage and resilience to take decisive decisions on every chapter of problems and to intervene within its historical borders. The Dodecanese are not conceivable without Turkey. The equipment plans are a provocation to Turkey and drag the Aegean into a whirlpool of tensions. They have usurped the Dodecanese and taken them with games. For Turkey to live without the Dodecanese is a dream. The pursue of an aggressive policy by the opposite side of the Aegean has no benefit to any country.”

“Turkey will never abandon the Blue Homeland. Athens should watch its steps. The results of Greece’s actions will be heavy. There are no permanent friendships or hostilities between states. Nor have there been until today. We are entering a period in the world where one crisis ends and another begins. Our internal front must be balanced…”Erdogan’s partner added.


Bahceli even warned with a “new 1922” (Asia Minor Catastrophe), saying that he does not even need to explain what will happen if Greece follows the stance of the Western countries and comes out against Turkey, as happened in the 1920s. “I believe that with peace everyone will win. However, if we have to fight to win peace, that will be a wedding feast for us.”


Turkey “will never give up its sovereign rights in the Blue Homeland. And if someone relies on the language of weapons in the face of diplomacy, Turkey is not going to lose, just like it happened 103 years ago”.

Turkish provocative again: They took the Dodecanese from Turkey, Athens should be careful - ProtoThema English

Erdogan's government partner comments on reports about the transfer and installation of missile systems for the defence of the Greek islands - "The results of Greece's actions will be heavy", Bahceli threatened

en.protothema.gr

 

[hyperman]

Man come on,you know this was an excuse. There's no serious "militarization" of islands. Unless you consider a few M1117 Guardian and M113s a threat. Besides,the islands have had tiny garrisons for decades and Turkey only started nagging about it now.

Well you guys gotto decide, Dendias saying they are making extensive Defense deployments and even offensive weapons as a "deterrent".

As for any ships being sent, its a tit for tak, to deny fiat accompli over disputed matters. Its best to name make unilateral moves for Greece and leave things frozen until a resolution is agreed to, no commercial exploitation of disputed EEZ until both sides agree. If Greece sends something, then Turkey will send an equivalent, something like a drill ship, you don't want that, then don't self your stuff. Every action has a reaction, so don't make moves, and there won't be counter moves made.

 

[Foinikas]

Well you guys gotto decide, Dendias saying they are making extensive Defense deployments and even offensive weapons as a "deterrent".

Dendias is dreaming of "AA dome" and "missile walls".

As for any ships being sent, its a tit for tak, to deny fiat accompli over disputed matters. Its best to name make unilateral moves for Greece and leave things frozen until a resolution is agreed to, no commercial exploitation of disputed EEZ until both sides agree. If Greece sends something, then Turkey will send an equivalent, something like a drill ship, you don't want that, then don't self your stuff. Every action has a reaction, so don't make moves, and there won't be counter moves made.

Are you serious? Tit for that? WHERE?

Inside Greek territory? Did you see where that happened on the map? You're giving cheap excuses. There's no disputed EEZ north of Crete.

 

[hyperman]

Dendias is dreaming of "AA dome" and "missile walls".


Are you serious? Tit for that? WHERE?

Inside Greek territory? Did you see where that happened on the map? You're giving cheap excuses. There's no disputed EEZ north of Crete.

How do you know it happened North of Crete and not East of Crete, where there is a dispute.

 

[Foinikas]

How do you know it happened North of Crete and not East of Crete, where there is a dispute.

Look at the map

 

[hyperman]

Look at the map

Your link said they monitored from a distance outside, not interfered.

 

[Oublious]

Foni you should understand the coming 4 years you will cry to a wall and bobody will listen to Greece. EU is trying to save ther ass. EU is bigger then Greece water issues, wait and see. Germany is starting today arming them self, they are working with a lot off Turkish weapon companies .