PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[Ak01]

which part ? Chinese plane cheaper or Turkish costlier ?

I don't think you will have any doubts about J-35 will be cheaper than Checkmate. But regards to KAAN its a 100 Million $ Fighter and end product will be costlier as sole buyer is Turkey unless Pakistan buys it.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2023/05/12/f-35-is-cheaper-than-the-kaan-which-will-become-more-expensive/

Is the Over $100 Million Price Tag for Turkey's 'KAAN' 5th Gen Fighter Jet Justified?" - Defence Security Asia

- Any party that aspires to acquire Turkey's fifth-generation fighter aircraft known as "KAAN" need to "think twice" before contemplating buying it, because the price of one unit of the fifth-generation fighter aircraft is expected to exceed US$100 million (RM450 million).

defencesecurityasia.com

$100m is reasonable.

I dont understand why you think J-35 would be any Cheaper.

PAF paid nearly 70-80m for J-10s, J-35 will certainly be costlier. Kaan will probably be more expensive.

IF we were to buy it

The way they will finance it, if it was even procured is multi fold. Firstly, a PAF order will drive cost down, this is why TAI has been pushing for sales/investment. More airframes, the cheaper.

The other means is using cheaper Pakistani labour to help in cost reductions, alongside smaller batch procurement and of course loans. The same way everything is done. We paid 6bn for the Hangor class deal, when its needed, it will be done.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

one of the reason is while going through one youtube video of Mr. Mansoor Ali Khan (television anchor) was of opinion that India can't afford a 5th Gen fighters financially.

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in such a case then, I was wondered, how come a country with 70+ billion $ defense budget can't afford a 5th Gen fighter where as Pakistan with total budget of 67 billion $ can afford 2 types of 5th Gen fighters.



for past 2 decades I am hearing that "Pakistan economy will also be better" if you compare Pakistan economy with its neighbors, just like Passport Pakistan above Afghanistan only.

Why are you watching crap youtube videos? India can easily afford twice the number of fifth-generation fighters as Pakistan (if not more).

 

[Trailer23]

KAAN is 5th gen? Nice joke.

TEJAs is what Gen...?

Some blow-hole said 4.5 (i'm not kidding). That flying samosa is barely 4 Gen & without an Engine, its an expensive paper-weight.

The Turkish were able to make a "5th Gen" in less than a Decade.

HAL couldn't even get a 3.5 Gen goin' (properly) in 4 Decades.

You're forgetting that Turkey was one of the Original partners for the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter - later F-35. They are still supplying various Parts & Software for the F-35. I'm pretty sure they've picked up a thing or two.

 

[TopGun786]

one of the reason is while going through one youtube video of Mr. Mansoor Ali Khan (television anchor) was of opinion that India can't afford a 5th Gen fighters financially.

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in such a case then, I was wondered, how come a country with 70+ billion $ defense budget can't afford a 5th Gen fighter where as Pakistan with total budget of 67 billion $ can afford 2 types of 5th Gen fighters.



for past 2 decades I am hearing that "Pakistan economy will also be better" if you compare Pakistan economy with its neighbors, just like Passport Pakistan above Afghanistan only.

You have little knowledge about Pakistan's hidden economy. Their is another "business group" producing a lot of money for their own use.

 

[blueboy7862]

KAAN is 5th gen? Nice joke.

Sorry, Tejas belongs to Fifth generation. LOL.

 

[Reichmarshal]

its not about ability of Turkish aerospace or KAANs firepower its about cost of plane.

Do you know why after 36 Rafale, India yet to decide on 114 fighters or Pakistan took so long to buy 36 J-10s ? its $$$$ or Cost of each Fighters.

unlike procurements like Su-30s or Mig-29 and F-16s or JF-17s, where price tag are around 30-40 million $. 5th Gen fighters of western countries will be way above 100 million $$ price tag, which we southern Asian countries can't afford.

60 KAANs will be approximate $ 8-12 Billions, how do you expect Pakistan to finance it ? when PAF buys J-35s GoP can expect China will & can provide it at subsidized rate and will be provided at a long term loan & maintained by Chinese will Turkey provide that.

just take a deep look at the life cycle of the F16 compared to the Mirage 2000, since its first flight in the late 70s till date. the no. of ac that rolled off the assembly line and the ac still in active service.
The infrastructure created by GD/LM and Dassault to cater to their respective ac.
After u look at the above u come to realize Dassault has always operated in a niche left by the big players ie LM, Boeing, Mikoyan, and Sukhoi, and when u operate in a niche u operate with certain limitations and those limitations have been and are being experienced by all mirage 2000 operators in form of expensive spares/ non availability of spares and non-availability of attritional ac replacement due to closure of the assembly line and limited no. of second hand ac. (Sometimes I get the feeling that france does not want to come out of this niche n is thriving in its space like the shylock who wants his pound of flesh....this is true for all french def exports)
So operators are left with no option but to go for the cannibalization of certain ac to keep the fleet airworthy or better yet simply ground the fleet with the eventual decommissioning of the type.

AC r an expensive piece of tech that serve their respective AF for decades. So all AF keep that in mind before going for any particular type.

 

[Michael]

Based on speculation from various sources on Chinese social media at the moment, the price of the J-35 foreign trade version is basically the same as the current price of the F-35A.

The current speculated price of the J-35 foreign trade version is 80-120 million dollars, and the top version may reach 150 million dollars. The exact price will depend on the configuration chosen by the customer. ------ This is the price of the bare aircraft and does not include weapons, spare engines, training, etc. The combined transaction price could be around $200 million.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Based on speculation from various sources on Chinese social media at the moment, the price of the J-35 foreign trade version is basically the same as the current price of the F-35A.

The current speculated price of the J-35 foreign trade version is 80-120 million dollars, and the top version may reach 150 million dollars. The exact price will depend on the configuration chosen by the customer. ------ This is the price of the bare aircraft and does not include weapons, spare engines, training, etc. The combined transaction price could be around $200 million.

Given the large labour cost differences between China and the USA, there is a element of 'profiteering' there at those type of price points I think.

For Pakistan, Ka'an will balance things out as an alternative as well as a number of Arab countries. Cost is unknown, but it will be interesting to see the price they pitch that at.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

Given the large labour cost differences between China and the USA, there is a element of 'profiteering' there at those type of price points I think.

For Pakistan, Ka'an will balance things out as an alternative as well as a number of Arab countries. Cost is unknown, but it will be interesting to see the price they pitch that at.

I don't think there's a big difference in labor costs between China and the US anymore. I believe production volume is the main factor in this case.

Yes Kaan is a wild card but i personally think it won't be significantly cheaper.

 

[Michael]

Given the large labour cost differences between China and the USA, there is a element of 'profiteering' there at those type of price points I think.

For Pakistan, Ka'an will balance things out as an alternative as well as a number of Arab countries. Cost is unknown, but it will be interesting to see the price they pitch that at.

I don't think there's a big difference in labor costs between China and the US anymore. I believe production volume is the main factor in this case.

Yes Kaan is a wild card but i personally think it won't be significantly cheaper.

1. the internal price of the F-35A in the US is about 80 million dollars, but that's not its export price. You guys can check the exact export price.
2, According to our analysis and judgment, the J-35 is technologically ahead of the F-35A (at least ahead of the versions before the TR4 version). I know this point of view is hugely controversial, but we do think so.
3, Based on current information, PLAAF's own version of the J-35A will be more expensive. ------ engines and avionics, unlike the foreign trade version.

Currently, the price of the foreign trade version of the J-35 is all speculative figures without any hard evidence. It is not accurate.

Generally, the engine and airborne radar account for the largest portion of the cost of a fighter jet. Different choices of avionics (including radar) determine the difference in final price.

KAAN. at the moment it is still unknown. So, I will not discuss about its price.

 

[Ak01]

1. the internal price of the F-35A in the US is about 80 million dollars, but that's not its export price. You guys can check the exact export price.
2, According to our analysis and judgment, the J-35 is technologically ahead of the F-35A (at least ahead of the versions before the TR4 version). I know this point of view is hugely controversial, but we do think so.
3, Based on current information, PLAAF's own version of the J-35A will be more expensive. ------ engines and avionics, unlike the foreign trade version.

Currently, the price of the foreign trade version of the J-35 is all speculative figures without any hard evidence. It is not accurate.

Generally, the engine and airborne radar account for the largest portion of the cost of a fighter jet. Different choices of avionics (including radar) determine the difference in final price.

KAAN. at the moment it is still unknown. So, I will not discuss about its price.

and on what basis do you think so?

 

[Ak01]

Given the large labour cost differences between China and the USA, there is a element of 'profiteering' there at those type of price points I think.

For Pakistan, Ka'an will balance things out as an alternative as well as a number of Arab countries. Cost is unknown, but it will be interesting to see the price they pitch that at.

the reason the f35 is so cheap is the amount of orders there are

 

[Hussain]

the reason the f35 is so cheap is the amount of orders there are

that's true for Capex, but Opex is a different story. Another issue is its maintenance, and down time. Which "might be" true for all 5th Gen's.

 

[Quwa]

that's true for Capex, but Opex is a different story. Another issue is its maintenance, and down time. Which "might be" true for all 5th Gen's.

It's tough to accurately estimate fighter OPEX because the public disclosures will cost it based on both the price of spare parts and labour. Labour in the West will generally be much costlier than Pakistan -- and I'm not exaggerating the "much" part. In the West, you'll have a higher-valued currency plus higher wages, higher pensions, taxes in income, and so on. Depending on how much labour is a factor for flying a fighter, the PAF could save anything from marginal to a lot.

This might explain why it may be comparatively more economical for the PAF to keep flying older F-16s or C-130Hs than say a Western power. Not only does it cost less to the PAF from a direct cost standpoint, but it transfers know-how (e.g., about F-16A/Bs) really well from one generation to the next.

There's a higher chance there are many more Gen Ys and Gen Zs who know how a Block-15 works in Pakistan than say a NATO power who decided it'd be best to store their F-16A/Bs.

The potential issue with a NGFA like the J-35 or KAAN could be that the cost of the spare parts would be much higher than the PAF's current legacy fighters, so OPEX will go up, by a lot. OTOH, this is also why entering into some type of parts manufacturing deal with the supplier could be so important for the PAF.

It might be the reason why the KAAN is still on AHQ's plate because there's a fair chance of securing at least spare parts manufacturing, which, if done in Pakistan, might help bring OPEX costs down to a relatively affordable degree.

OTOH, I'd still argue that our lower domestic labour costs will further help keep NGFA OPEX under control -- technicians and engineers just cost the PAF less. I do think labour cost and availability plays a factor. It may be one (of several) reasons why, for example, the ROKAF could field more advanced fighters than say the RAF.

 

[CSAW]