Turkish Naval Programs

[hyperman]

Yes, so if Uncle Sam allowed them to go on and build one, they could, instead, they are not so they have to go about the Soryu route. I however, am not qualified to talk about American law and policy towards Japan, but from what i do know, Japan has restrictions on it postwar, alongside the US policy of Nuclear hegemony.

But aside from this, you are yet to raise any valid point about a first generation, research reactor/sub being developed within 20-30 years, to use as a iterative stepping stone into a fully operational, combat ready SSN/BN

Your GDP is smaller than Bangladesh, you don't have the luxury of a 20-30 year "research project" you need a viable product in the 1st gen, not a research product.

This isn't "eat grass", b/c at the end of the day the bomb is still viable no matter if its not a hydrogen bomb or not a more sophisticated design. Nuclear Subs(with viable operational capacity in the modern battlefield) don't work like that.

Nuclear Submarines are very very difficult especially without input from an experienced nation, as India got with Soviet/Russia.

 

[hyperman]

No, you started a bad faith, low hanging fruit/bait argument.

No I did not.

This is the comment I responded to.

"Yes, a miniaturized nuclear reactor will be no major issue for Pakistan. Pakistan has manufactured all types of nuclear reactors and has carried out research on miniaturized nuclear reactor for many years. This is common knowledge."

"Yes, the technical aspect of the reactor design and production isn’t an issue. "

Do you agree with his statement?

"no major issue"

 

[Quwa]

of course its achievable. Dieno is more skeptical but I never said it wasn't achievable. I WANT Pakistan to pursue the project, I just said I was skeptical of the viability without Chinese help.

I questioned the fact that the other user was beating his chest and saying it would be easy and how Pakistan has this and that and its "not an issue" for Pakistan etc etc.

Thats where the argument started if you scroll back up and check.

Yeah, it wouldn't be easy.

I'd just say that the point we're making is that unlike aerospace, for example, Pakistan genuinely does have a real R&D and production base for nuclear.

They can do the job provided the money and time is there. Yes, they would run into serious technical and engineering challenges, 100%, but they have the capacity to overcome them if given the right investment.

The point we're making is that PAEC wouldn't be a blackhole where money goes in and nothing serious comes out.

To the contrary, they'll achieve something, even if they fail at their original goal.

For example, the whole SSN thing can fail, but from it, PAEC will accrue their own IP in other areas that can apply elsewhere, like civilian SMRs for our rural areas, for example.

 

[Ak01]

Your GDP is smaller than Bangladesh, you don't have the luxury of a 20-30 year "research project" you need a viable product in the 1st gen, not a research product.

This isn't "eat grass", b/c at the end of the day the bomb is still viable no matter if its not a hydrogen bomb or not a more sophisticated design. Nuclear Subs(with viable operational capacity in the modern battlefield) don't work like that.

Nuclear Submarines are very very difficult especially without input from an experienced nation, as India got with Soviet/Russia.

Again, this is you arguing in bad faith and attempting to bait lol.

We do not have the luxury of a Research project, we do not have the luxury of purchasing one from abroad. What happens in this case, we CREATE the luxury of a research project.

A viable nuclear submarine is one that will do what it says on the tin, surface, dive, carry humans safely, and beyond anything else, provide HOARDES of valuable DATA to iterate upon. We have the luxury of time, we dont have the luxury of funding hence why EVERYONE is arguing that someone needs to absorb the risk and cough up some funding. The expertise exists, the risk appetite does not.

This is eat grass, a second strike capability is our lifeline. It is very much as eat grass as it gets. A nuclear sub, with viable operational capability is absolutely doable, with RESEARCH and DEVELOPMENT, it will take decades, money, time, resources, but create something money cannot buy. Freedom.

The Indian reactor from the outset maintained commonality as far as possible with Land based Heavy Water Reactors- of which PAEC has 4, potentially 5 research reactors designed in house. Nobody will risk providing assistance, in this regard, Pakistani nuclear programs are held at the same level as NK ones. Nobody will take that risk, India needed something urgently, we dont have the luxury of Urgent, we have the luxury of expertise and capabilty, as did India, they did not have the luxury of time, we do.

 

[hyperman]

Yeah, it wouldn't be easy.

Ok, thank you. End of Discussion. Khalas thats all I needed the acknowledgment of.

I didn't say Pakistan couldn't do it, I said there are complications and its very very difficult and its would be even harder to do without Chinese input.

That dude was acting like the submarine itself is more difficult than the reactor, when its the other way around.

Like Yeah Turkey bro, just make the sub and send it over to Pakistan and we will put a reactor in it, easy peasy. lol

 

[Ak01]

No I did not.

This is the comment I responded to.

"Yes, a miniaturized nuclear reactor will be no major issue for Pakistan. Pakistan has manufactured all types of nuclear reactors and has carried out research on miniaturized nuclear reactor for many years. This is common knowledge."

"Yes, the technical aspect of the reactor design and production isn’t an issue. "

Do you agree with his statement?

"no major issue"

If you're just wanting to argue semantics, none of us are interested in that lol. If you want him to use different words, please, give him some alternatives.

We all know what he meant, literally anyone reading it with a bit of context can read what he is trying to say. The capability exists, thats his point, thats everyones point.

Nobody is saying its like opening up amazon and priming a reactor to your door.

 

[Ak01]

Ok, thank you. End of Discussion. Khalas thats all I needed the acknowledgment of.

I didn't say Pakistan couldn't do it, I said there are complications and its very very difficult and its would be even harder to do without Chinese input.

That dude was acting like the submarine itself is more difficult than the reactor, when its the other way around.

Like Yeah Turkey bro, just make the sub and send it over to Pakistan and we will put a reactor in it, easy peasy. lol

So you spent the last few hours arguing semantics lol.

 

[hyperman]

a second strike capability is our lifeline.

this works when the enemy does not know where the submarine is,

You can take an American Nuclear Submarine from the 1950s and its not a viable second strike capability in the modern day, despite it being one back when it was created. Why? b/c the parameters have changed.

The Chinese never bothered to deploy the Type 91 into any significant patrols b/c they knew if they were to ever go to war, that thing would be dead before anything even started.

 

[hyperman]

So you spent the last few hours arguing semantics lol.

Yes. He said it was easy, I said it was the opposite. And somehow some of you interpreted it as some sort of affront against Pakistan as If I had insulted the entire country or something. lol

edit:

I only said it was extremely difficult, Deino straight up bluntly stated there was no chance in hell, but Ya'll chose to gang up on me, instead of contesting his even more blunt outlook. lol

 

[Ak01]

this works when the enemy does not know where the submarine is,

You can take an American Nuclear Submarine from the 1950s and its not a viable second strike capability in the modern day, despite it being one back when it was created. Why? b/c the parameters have changed.

The Chinese never bothered to deploy the Type 91 into any significant patrols b/c they knew if they were to ever go to war, that thing would be dead before anything even started.

I really cant tell if your goal is to troll, let me try in a different format since you seem to be misunderstanding how DEVELOPMENT works.

Perhaps this may help clear it up?

 

[Ak01]

Yes. He said it was easy, I said it was the opposite. And somehow some of you interpreted it as some sort of affront against Pakistan as If I had insulted the entire country or something. lol

edit:

I only said it was extremely difficult, Deino straight up bluntly stated there was no chance in hell, but Ya'll chose to gang up on me, instead of contesting his even more blunt outlook. lol

Nobody ganged up on you, Deino made one post, i replied to it at your request. If he decides to make more posts, i will reply to his questions and assertions.

Your posts and assertions were silly, arguing a lack of capability, then went to GDP, then went to "first design gotta be world leading" and then that development is useless u need a first time home run and it needs to be operational. Sorry, you made some really poor arguments and points, borderline trolling and baiting (gdp bangladesh blah blah indian talking points), then retracted everything and claimed it was just a case of you disliked his wording lol.

 

[hyperman]

I really cant tell if your goal is to troll, let me try in a different format since you seem to be misunderstanding how DEVELOPMENT works. View attachment 102267

Perhaps this may help clear it up?

Wow grape.

Maybe building a 1st gen gen F-86 Sabre equivalent will be competitive as well if Pakistan decides to build a fighter Jet.

This is apples and oranges.

When you are trying to build something to be competitive, you don't have the luxury of building a 1st gen product, you need to either build something that is either an equivalent of the current gen or close to as possible, perhaps a gen behind, for it to be reasonably competitive.

 

[hyperman]

Nobody ganged up on you, Deino made one post, i replied to it at your request. If he decides to make more posts, i will reply to his questions and assertions.

Your posts and assertions were silly, arguing a lack of capability, then went to GDP, then went to "first design gotta be world leading" and then that development is useless u need a first time home run and it needs to be operational. Sorry, you made some really poor arguments and points, borderline trolling and baiting (gdp bangladesh blah blah indian talking points), then retracted everything and claimed it was just a case of you disliked his wording lol.

View attachment 102268

I stand by all the elements, I merely pointed out that the initial discussion was over a comment that specific user made about it being easy.

And yes all of the points I raised have to do with viability.

GDP/Money matters, You don't have $5 Billion for a "research project". Of course the amount of money you have to spend on the project matter, Defense capacity is proportional to economic strength, thats Defense 101, economic strength propels defense.

I'm not using "indian talking points" I'm pointing out the reality. If anything this whole thing with that guy's initial comment is the equivalent of the Supa Powa 2020 stuff from the Indians.

I didn't make poor arguments, i gave china as an example, and the difficulties china faced, and the reason I brought up China is b/c China had more experience than you, and more money than you, and still struggled until 2006. I pointed out Pakistan has not made any reactors for Power generation.

The entire response so far thought can be boiled down to "You just don't know our skills", "See Pakistan Hater Hoodboi even stands by our nuclear program". Whats that have to do with Nuclear Marine propulsion which itself is hard enough, but trying to build propulsion for a submarine is the apex of that puzzle.

 

[Ak01]

Wow grape.

Maybe building a 1st gen gen F-86 Sabre equivalent will be competitive as well if Pakistan decides to build a fighter Jet.

This is apples and oranges.

Always something to be learnt. This is why the JF-17 program was ITERATIVE and had further DEVELOPMENT cycles post induction... in the same way KAAN is a program that DEVELOPS and ITERATES on a baseline design, GATHERING DATA, EXPERTISE AND EXPERIENCE from its deployment, to then produce a better product.

I wonder why Turkey developed ATMACA, which for all intents and purposes is, on paper, as capable as a later Harpoon/Exocet, why did you not go directly for something more akin to FOSW/SPEAR 5? Why develop Gokdogan? Its nothing remarkable...? Why did you not go out and build a super duper wonder missile instead? Most of the world is moving to VLRAAM's via Meteor, PL15, new US projects and even Meteor is getting an MLU, why waste money on a turkified, less capable 120c5?

 

[hodor]

There is no source that Pakistan can develop a nuclear propulsion system for submarines. It is a very different and much more difficult technology than a nuclear bomb or a nuclear power plant.

It is much more compact, much smaller and much riskier.

I don't think Pakistan can have this technology even if it tries for many years.