Why Secularism will Worsen Pakistan’s security situation

[_Arabia_]

I have no issue with Pakistanis claiming to be Arabs. In fact, we Indians would be quite happy if they identified as Arabs instead of Indians in the West.

I have no issue with anyone claiming anything online or in person. It is irrelevant. Lastly you are talking about a tiny, tiny fringe minority. Even South Asian Muslims of Arab ancestry (they do exist and this is well-established in historical sources as well as modern-day DNA tests) might acknowledge this part of their ancestry but even such people do not consider themselves Arabs. Not when most of such people don't even speak Arabic. There is a difference between having a portion of your ancestry from country/region/ethnic group x or y and to outright claim that identity in whole.

The Nizams of Hyderabad for instance claimed Arab ancestry (Farooqi to be precise) and they also employed Yemeni soldiers in their state and imported many Arabs (Yemenis in particular) to the point that I once read that there was/is an entire Yemeni/Arab neighbourhood in Hyderabad. There is an entire community in for instance Sri Lanka (Sri Lankan Moors) who consider themselves a mixture of locals and Arab traders/settlers. Most like people with such origins are not all of the Sri Lankan Moor population but a significant portion. I think some DNA tests have confirmed as much.

There is another such community in India proper (Kerala) as well.

Which is also well-established by sources, recorded history (millennia long) etc.

Read the "history section" of the "Islam in Kerala" article on Wikipedia. There are sources attached.

Islam in Kerala - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyway so what should happen with those 250 million or so Indian Muslims in your eyes?

 

[_Arabia_]

I knew this Algerian guy in the US and back in the 90's they were going thru this brutal jihadist war in Algeria with tens of thousands of deaths. Absolutely horrible situation like our Kp/ Balochi drama. They finally suppressed it after a lot of trouble and blood n treasure. Turned out the jihadists were all Mossad backed. Its a case study of how Israel interferes in muslim countries using deception. The Algerian guy mentioned how the Mossad ran the entire campaign to destabilize Algeria.

These same yahuday now greedily eyeing getting back into Iran any which way imaginable and dismantle the Ayatollahs and bring back some chutiya outfit like turdogan or King playstation type of regime and stifle the last bit of opposition to their full control over the ME.

Tyaar betthay hain yahuday and now openly threatening regime change in Iran.

You raise some fair points but not every "Islamist inspired" (in lack of better words) movements are foreign infiltrations. Algeria for instance, since they gained and won their independence against France in 1960 (heroically at that too) has been ruled by a secular military regime (Arab nationalists in many ways) and the same political party (National Liberation Front) which has alienated many locals throughout the decades. Islamists, nationalistic Berbers and other opponents.

In fact the Islamists won the elections in the early 1990's only to be removed from power which started the civil war. There were horrible massacres committed by and on both parties.

Obviously foreign intelligence services would have/will have infiltrated such movements but this is not exclusive to Islamists. They have infiltrated both parties (rulers and opposition).

As for Mullah's in Iran, they too were/have been infiltrated not that much different from the Shah. Khamenei himself lived in exile/was welcomed to France of all places. He landed in Iran on a Air France plane.

The only non-infiltrated Muslim majority country on the planet is probably Eritrea. Read about their regime/system.



This guy is probably the most popular Arab travel vlogger on Youtube. From Bahrain. He has some amazing videos from across the Arab world and world as a whole. There are English subtitles too.

 

[OakTree23]

Anyway so what should happen with those 250 million or so Indian Muslims in your eyes?

Brother, in his eyes and many of the same sick thought, they’re seeking females, especially fair skinned ones who just happens to be Muslims due to them massive in flux of Turks, Persians, and Arabs during the last 1000 years which invisibly altered the genetics of SA Muslims.

They’re obsessed with sex, rape, and the need to pay the Muslims back for the perceived atrocities that occurred long time ago.

It’s about bedding the females of your enemies so you can then shame and dishonor them further.

Rape is inherent in Hinduism. This is why rapes are so common in India. It’s wide spread.

https://digitalcommons.trinity.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=relig_faculty

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

I have no issue with anyone claiming anything online or in person. It is irrelevant. Lastly you are talking about a tiny, tiny fringe minority. Even South Asian Muslims of Arab ancestry (they do exist and this is well-established in historical sources as well as modern-day DNA tests) might acknowledge this part of their ancestry but even such people do not consider themselves Arabs. Not when most of such people don't even speak Arabic. There is a difference between having a portion of your ancestry from country/region/ethnic group x or y and to outright claim that identity in whole.

The Nizams of Hyderabad for instance claimed Arab ancestry (Farooqi to be precise) and they also employed Yemeni soldiers in their state and imported many Arabs (Yemenis in particular) to the point that I once read that there was/is an entire Yemeni/Arab neighbourhood in Hyderabad. There is an entire community in for instance Sri Lanka (Sri Lankan Moors) who consider themselves a mixture of locals and Arab traders/settlers. Most like people with such origins are not all of the Sri Lankan Moor population but a significant portion. I think some DNA tests have confirmed as much.

There is another such community in India proper (Kerala) as well.

Which is also well-established by sources, recorded history (millennia long) etc.

Read the "history section" of the "Islam in Kerala" article on Wikipedia. There are sources attached.

Islam in Kerala - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Anyway so what should happen with those 250 million or so Indian Muslims in your eyes?

Every ethnicity in the world has some genetic mix from various other groups—there’s nothing unique about Pakistanis in that regard. However, it’s only Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and Indian Muslims who claim to be Arabs.

 

[Sharma Ji]

Something that is pretty new that the latest research shows many Algerian was coming during Majapahit Hindu Kingdom and help local Sultanate in Demak, East Java, defeated Majapahit Kingdom. This then prompted the left over Hindu Majapahit move to Bali Island which is not far from East Java

I read it as mahapajit ! (great pajit)

 

[Indos]

I read it as mahapajit ! (great pajit)

Haha

Maja is the fruit grown where Majapahit Empire originated (Majapahit Empire control not only Indonesia, but also Malaysia, Philippine

Where Pahit comes from the word in Indonesia means bitter

So the Maja fruit is bitter, the origin of the name Majapahit

The Kingdom raises after the Javanese defeat Mongol and it has strong link to leaders who defeat the Mongol (Yuan Dinasty attacking Java Island)

 

[Pataliputra]

Stigma is not forced convertion ........stigma is in having dravadian dna .

So, you Pakistanis believe that South Indian DNA is inferior?

 

[313Ghazi]

Pakistan's poor governance is 100% also influenced by religion (as well as general incompetency & corruption too)You can't compare this situation to the UK. And I have seen this personally first hand.

Do you know about religious groups who oppose updates to the educational curriculum because apparently it is anti-Islam? Or groups that arbitrarily declare anything as 'haram' and bring up some complex debate whether it's allowed or not? Or how Islam was used as an excuse to oppose land reforms? Or some groups using it try and deny very basic things like education to women? Or like the establishment propping up Islamist proxies who it thought were its muslim buddies doing jihad until they backfired significantly (Taliban)?

Which update has ever been blocked because of a cleric? Who holds the power to pass bills? Parliament and the President. The CII is an advisory body - they have no authority.

Also 50% of the time Pakistan has been governed by military dictators, and of the rest of the time, it's mainly been puppets of said dictators - the clerics can't stop their supply of Whisky but can stop educational reforms? Bullshit.

Also plenty of such groups exist in the UK, just like in Pakistan, they have no actual influence.

As for declarations of haram - name me a single legal restriction imposed in Pakistan based on the fatwa of a cleric. It's like barking dogs, nobody cares. The only person who has a voice in Pakistan and the might to impose his will is the Chief of Army Staff.

Land reforms are opposed by the land owning class, the same class that sits in parliament and the senate. Are you surprised we don't have land reform? Or do you think it's because some mullah said something somewhere?

Your entire argument is devoid of substance whatsoever, the truth is EVERYTHING wrong in Pakistan is at the door of the Military leadership, the political leadership and the wealthy elite they are a part of and in service too.

When it suits these people jahils from madrasas are shipped to block roads, and when it suits them, they shoot them dead and throw them in prison. Look at the handling of the TLP between Noon leage and PTI govts. The only difference was whether they served the interests of the elite or not with their protests.

Pakistan has never voted a religious party into government. No cleric has signficant political following in Pakistan - you'll find tiktokers with larger followings than most of these celebrity or political molvis.

The idea that they have any sway in Pakistan is a distraction from the real problem. They are tools, hand in glove with the elite, especially the military. They let go of the TTP leadership, they backed the Taliban, even the Al Queda affiliated loon who had armed militias inside the Red mosque was a former diplomat for Pakistan and had top level political connections. He was part of the elite. His father served under Zia ul Haq.

We are long past believing some goat molester being paid a few thousand rupees a month in a tribal village who has to rely on charity to run his household is somehow responsible for the decades long failings of the state.

 

[Indos]

Previously, one Pakistani member, Muji Iqbal, wants Pakistan adopt Japanese style solution

One thing that could be implemented to solve security problem is to ban weapons in Pakistan hold by civilians. It is firstly done by Hideyoshi when he united whole Japan under his rule

 

[c14-Isotope]

No one even asks Pakistan to become secular, but they've been flogging the poor dead horse since the day they were born.

Because the hollow reasons that resulted in Pakistan need to to be reinforced periodically so that the population does not become disillusioned. Indoctrination is key!

To choose secularism or not, that water is under the bridge now.
What Pakistan can do is check the rampant and ever increasing radicalism in their society, and I have full faith that Pakistan will fail even on that.

 

[M. Sarmad]

..., it’s only Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and Indian Muslims who claim to be Arabs.

Islam in this region spread primarily through the preaching of Sufi saints, most of whom were of Arab descent. These saints, along with the descendants of Prophet Muhammad (Sayyids), continue to be held in the highest esteem to this day, and this phenomenon has indeed encouraged some individuals of modest origins to assert ancestral connections to Arabs, all in pursuit of enhanced social standing and broader acceptance.

And then we have a small minority with legitimate ancestral ties with Arabia, other than that no one in Pakistan claims to be of Arab origins. Not sure why you keep insisting on that.

And Arabs never colonized your country; it was the Turks, Mongols, and Afghans who did. Arabs have not wronged you, and even today, hundreds of thousands of Hindus live and work in Arab countries without any issues. So why the strong hatred toward Arabs? Is it because of your hatred and fear of Islam (that originated in the Arabia)?

 

[Pataliputra]

I respect your responses to this Hindu c*mstain on a Lindu. I enjoy your posts as we’ve had good discussion in the past.

I am one of those ethnic Pakistanis who are also Seyyid. Think @Cookie Monster might have put it more effectively on another post about Seyyids in Pakistan.

Due to the civil strife after Karbala, many Seyyids (not all) did migrate towards Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan/India. But not everyone who claims to be Seyyid is actually one. It’s also used as a name and honorific title. Not to deviate from this good discussion, but the truth is not as simple.

I said this many years ago on the previous forum while explaining this to another brain dead Indian Hindu, they think we claim To be Arab, Turk, and Persian because we follow Islam very closely. Reading the Quran in Arabic, praying 5x day, observing the Islamic holidays. To an extremist Hindu (regardless of their education), they view this as SA Muslims trying to be something that they are not.

Whenever I’ve come across Muslims in other countries in the Middle East, I can’t emphasis enough that there is a deep connection between on the mere account of being Muslims. It’s like meeting your brothers after years of separation. Not a single time a religious discussion was had. There was no need for one. From Algerians to Jordanians to Egyptians to Qataris to Saudis to Iranians. This while myself being Shia, there was not a single issue between us (knowing that some of them were “Sunni.” Just putting it in perspective for others.

Additionally, to these extremist Hindus, so many Muslims in lands they mistakenly believe belongs to Pagans and Hindus, were worse than invaders, were traitor for giving up our previous pagan religions.

My dad side is Seyyid (and genetically it shows), whereas my mom is more local background (also shows somewhat).

I don’t understand why Muslims of Indian subcontinent are so sensitive about their ancestry and DNA.

 

[Indos]

No one even asks Pakistan to become secular, but they've been flogging the poor dead horse since the day they were born.

Because the hollow reasons that resulted in Pakistan need to to be reinforced periodically so that the population does not become disillusioned. Indoctrination is key!

To choose secularism or not, that water is under the bridge now.
What Pakistan can do is check the rampant and ever increasing radicalism in their society, and I have full faith that Pakistan will fail even on that.

View attachment 104192

Check Pakistan literacy rate

The problem is not secular or not secular. It is when uneducated folks try to learn Islam.

Islam itself comes from God, the highest intellectual entity ever in the universe

Better education system, better spread of education will likely push better thinking process and this thinking process is needed when any person try to learn and understand Islam.

More understanding on Islam will prevent inter killing between Muslim, less arm rebellion

 

[Indos]

Check Pakistan literacy rate

The problem is not secular or not secular. It is when uneducated folks try to learn Islam.

Islam itself comes from God, the highest intellectual entity ever in the universe

Better education system, better spread of education will likely push better thinking process and this thinking process is needed when any person try to learn and understand Islam.

More understanding on Islam will prevent inter killing between Muslim, less arm rebellion

Let just use some example

1. Why Pakistani Taliban dare to kill other Muslim ? They think Pakistani Government is not Islamic one, then it is legal to kill Pakistani soldiers despite they are Muslim

This black and white thinking that make them dare to do arm rebellion. The same as well like in Aceh, the rebel use Islamic Agenda and vow to use Islamic Law when they can take power. They think it is legal to kill Indonesian soldiers because Indonesia is not Islamic country

What Islamic Country ? Even prophet Muhammad never said Madinah state as Islamic Country

What Islamic Law ? The government see killing, stealing, prostitution as crime as well

They think more on symbolic, less on substance, thinking process is the problem and needs to be deal with

Better thinking process will create better Islamic Cleric as well that can understand Islam better

 

[OakTree23]

I don’t understand why Muslims of Indian subcontinent are so sensitive about their ancestry and DNA.

@Waz @Musings @Oscar

Can we please ban @Chandragupt Maurya

And this one too for very deliberately derailing this thread.