Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[sahureka2]

Can i ask which stealth ALCM mock-up you are refering to? And if it's not too much, could you perhaps make a list of the planned/intended purchases and licence deals Iran was planning but never materialized from the 1990s to date? The order for 48 MiG-29 and 24 MiG-31 is pretty well known, but seems to have been more attemps afterwards, such as 24 MiG-31BM in 2001, and if i'm not mistaken i think various Antonov and other russian civilian or dual purpose (other than An-140) planes in the 2000s (both outright buy and licences, such as AN-148 and Tu-204). Also iirc around/after 2015 there was talk of Su-30SM and Yak-130 but of course nothing came of it back then. This being just what i can remember.

The AN-140s were licensed by the Ukrainian Antonov, which also had to supply a percentage of parts including the turboprop engines, as I think also for the AN-148, which is also why the turbofans are produced in Ukraine.
However the AN-140 and AN-148 the Ukrainian firms collaborated with those in Russia, where they produced the aircraft and many components of these aircraft under licence.
While for the AN-140T (cargo-transport) the production rights were in the hands of the Russians as they had paid for the design , in any case many components came from Ukraine and when the territorial problems started in 2014 the Ukrainian government put an end to the cooperation and the sending of the aircraft components and consequently the end of the production of the aircraft in Russia and consequently in Ukraine .

 

[ToddE]

Can i ask which stealth ALCM mock-up you are refering to?

Mobin ALCM/UCAV. Kinda similar to Storm Shadow, tested, offered for 10+ years. IRIAF was not interested or lacked budget, otherwise SU-24MK, F-4E/D can launch 3 of them in a single flight. With an RCS <0.1 m^2 they can easily bypass many ADs with ease. Because of modular design, can also serve as a EW platform (UAV role).

And if it's not too much, could you perhaps make a list of the planned/intended purchases and licence deals Iran was planning but never materialized from the 1990s to date? The order for 48 MiG-29 and 24 MiG-31 is pretty well known, but seems to have been more attemps afterwards, such as 24 MiG-31BM in 2001, and if i'm not mistaken i think various Antonov and other russian civilian or dual purpose (other than An-140) planes in the 2000s (both outright buy and licences, such as AN-148 and Tu-204). Also iirc around/after 2015 there was talk of Su-30SM and Yak-130 but of course nothing came of it back then. This being just what i can remember.

MIG-29, 72 ordered, 22 arrived
MIG-31, 24 ordered Never arrived.
MIG-27 + TU-22 (or the M version?) unknown numbers demanded.
SU-24, 32 were ordered, 6 arrived.
RD-500B, 50 Turbofans ordered for Shafagh AT, never arrived.
S-300PMU2 delayed but arrived.
Kilo Class Submarine Retrofit/upgrade was refused so done domestically.
IrAn-140 were built out of AN-140 CKDs.

Rumors/Considerations
Mirage F-1 was offered to Khatami during talks with US. Not sure how true this is.
Moldovan MIG-29 were purchased by US after CIA found Iranian secret attempt.
SU-27SM2/3 was offered, but Iran refused it in favor of SU-35S.
J-10A/B was evaluated, but IRIAF rejected it in favor of SU-35S.

 

[Piet]

Iran arms itself or not, regional countries will continue arming themselves because for one simple reason .... They can!

Greetings. And by heck they do. Happy days for various arms conglomerates around the world.

Not the thread for it, but Iranian strategic-level military doctrine is ....

Possibly not, but the post does refer to things aviation... at least.

obsolete as Iranian leadership is still stuck in merging national security with diplomacy while everyone else moved to more modern peace through power doctrine.

Hmm. I will have to get back to you on this one.

Countries are arming themselves like crazy with more and more lethal tech, all the while they are still part of the global community. Iran checked itself out from all of this long ago. Israel won't stop filling their bases with more and more F-15, F-35s armed with newer and newer ALBMs. PGCC won't stop, Turkey won't stop importing western tech even with its massive debts. Iranian leadership failed to modernise their thinking.

All very true. Sometimes I think of this as grown-ups playing at 'keeping up with the Jones's' one country over.

- They decided to use the nuclear program as a bargaining chip in "talks" instead of weaponizing it and moving on decades ago. You do not put your own security or lifeline on the table as a bargaining chip when talking to a much superior enemy.

My own country built its nukes with rather the same intended purpose, but the much-denied last Phase, that is, after it had detonated a nuke to prove its capability, did include an actual nuclear strike against an overwhelming enemy. Those officially still 'in the know' down here can argue till they're blue in the face. Why should they now be believed. No, there was a 'last phase' where nukes would actually have been deployed.

They learnt nothing from Iraq, Syria, Libya.
- They refused to understand that Russia and China wont support them so they have to find alternatives for tech. I wrote above about Russian betrayals towards Iran for 35 years now. Russia looked for its own, Iran did not.

As I wrote just recently, the US-Russian rapprochement should have Iran worried - by now at the very least.

- They killed IRIAF to the point that we are now cheering an AT firing an export version sidewinder in "Air-Drills" featuring 50 years old airframes. In a real war these AT's wont even survive two mins against the actual enemy in air. Another PR stunt.
- They refused to import key TOT/LP which other countries chased like fighter and supersonic CM engines, airborne radars, armament combat suites etc. Instead, corruption ran rampant, Supreme leader+Majles were fooled into funding cash pit meaningless or dare I say fake projects in combat aviation.

My own take from down here, is that Iran needs an re-armament czar', who has excellent rapport with all of the countries armed forces, all government branches, and industry. This person would need to be respected, and popular with all layers of the community. And to knock a few heads together when necessary. It appears as if Martyr General Qassem Soleimani would have been a good choice to this end.

Tazarve Trainer - Crash+abandoned.
Yasin AT - Crash, not a single flyable airframe exists in 7 years.
Shafagh AT - never left mockup stage.
Azaraksh - 3 airframes, program abandoned.
Saeghe-I/II - 6 airframes, program abandoned.
Kowsar - 5 Airframes in 8 years, dozens of airframes rusting on Assembly lines.
Qaher - not a single flyable airframe (Fake project) in 13 years.
IrAn-140/Simorgh - Crashes, 2 airframes exist in 20 years.
F-14AM program - 2 exists.
F-4E/D Dowran Program - handful of upgrades.
Fakour-90 BVR - Limited to 2 x F-14AM airframes, will retire with it.
Azaraksh HOBS WVR - never seen with IRIAF, still using obsolete AIM-9J.
OWJ Turbojet - 10 exists on 5 kowsars.
Jashesh Turbofan - Never left the prototype stage.
Stealth ALCM - never left the mockup stage.

List goes on and on.

Sickening is the most polite word I could come up pertaining to the above.

Piet

 

[Piet]

This is a 12-15 years old data of I-Hawk driven AIM-23 Sejjil inside AIM-54 body. The first attempt by Iran to use AIM-54 aerodynamics with everything else of Shahin/Shalamche Missile of Mersad/kamin Airdefence system. Thats pre Fakour-90 design which uses different motor, body, seeker, ECCM altogether. Two different products of two different eras. BT wrote that even the firing tests of Fakour are done to 70+ KM in Jamming environment against Shahed-171 (lowest possible RCS). The max range of the missile might be somewhere like 140-160 KM.

Oui, these guys really know how to muddy the water!

Thanks for the layout on top.

What really disappoints me about this Mindex Catalog is that it is marked 2025.

Why put 12 - 15 year old data to a weapon, Fakour in this instance, if more current info was (is) already surmised by people who have an interest in Iran's munitions products?

The only salvation that I see in the eventual demise of Fakour - and possibly -90B, is that the technology pertaining can be built upon for a slim-downed BVRAAM such as the reclusive Arash for instance.

Piet

 

[Piet]

Mobin ALCM/UCAV. Kinda similar to Storm Shadow, tested, offered for 10+ years. IRIAF was not interested or lacked budget, otherwise SU-24MK, F-4E/D can launch 3 of them in a single flight. With an RCS <0.1 m^2 they can easily bypass many ADs with ease. Because of modular design, can also serve as a EW platform (UAV role).

MIG-29, 72 ordered, 22 arrived
MIG-31, 24 ordered Never arrived.
MIG-27 + TU-22 (or the M version?) unknown numbers demanded.
SU-24, 32 were ordered, 6 arrived.
RD-500B, 50 Turbofans ordered for Shafagh AT, never arrived.
S-300PMU2 delayed but arrived.
Kilo Class Submarine Retrofit/upgrade was refused so done domestically.
IrAn-140 were built out of AN-140 CKDs.

Rumors/Considerations
Mirage F-1 was offered to Khatami during talks with US. Not sure how true this is.
Moldovan MIG-29 were purchased by US after CIA found Iranian secret attempt.
SU-27SM2/3 was offered, but Iran refused it in favor of SU-35S.
J-10A/B was evaluated, but IRIAF rejected it in favor of SU-35S.

Very nice.

Piet

 

[sahureka2]

RD-500B, 50 Turbofans ordered for Shafagh AT, never arrived.

RD-500B ?
you are sure it was the RD-500B
Because the Klimov RD-500 was a copy of the Derwent V and was used on early Soviet jets in the late 1940s early 1950s'
I was aware that the Shafagh AT had to have the Klimov RD-33

 

[ToddE]

Greetings. And by heck they do. Happy days for various arms conglomerates around the world.

Possibly not, but the post does refer to things aviation... at least.

Hmm. I will have to get back to you on this one.

All very true. Sometimes I think of this as grown-ups playing at 'keeping up with the Jones's' one country over.

My own country built its nukes with rather the same intended purpose, but the much-denied last Phase, that is, after it had detonated a nuke to prove its capability, did include an actual nuclear strike against an overwhelming enemy. Those officially still 'in the know' down here can argue till they're blue in the face. Why should they now be believed. No, there was a 'last phase' where nukes would actually have been deployed.

As I wrote just recently, the US-Russian rapprochement should have Iran worried - by now at the very least.

My own take from down here, is that Iran needs an re-armament czar', who has excellent rapport with all of the countries armed forces, all government branches, and industry. This person would need to be respected, and popular with all layers of the community. And to knock a few heads together when necessary. It appears as if Martyr General Qassem Soleimani would have been a good choice to this end.

Sickening is the most polite word I could come up pertaining to the above.

Piet

Iran has a very complicated and almost dysfunctional political system. Decision making is not the work of an individual, different power factions compete against each other for $ and influence. Even the supreme leader has to keep a balance which often results in no decision at all. IRIAF took the heaviest of the hits from this dysfunctionality among all of the military branches of Iran because like I said before majority of its most competitive commanders were KIA during the war and rest were purged or left Iran. Other branhces learnt to adapt the system. IRGCAF, AirDefence, IRIN, ISA, IRGCN etc all moved ahead and some are now globally top notch forces in their category but not IRIAF. One can ask why leadership never tried to find an alternative for failed deliveries from Russia in 90s. They could have explored Chinese options. Khatami's Iran was cozying up with the entire west, they could have capitalized that. Forget purchases, leadership never punished IAIO corrupt officers like that parvaneh guy for their PR stunts and claims that gave no results. Is SL, Majles, and MODAFL even aware that their funded Tazarve, Azarakhsh, Shafagh, Saegheh, Kowsar, Qaher, Yasin programs have given 15 flyable jets in 30+ years? then fanbois here moan when someone like Tom Cooper says that he finds it hard to believe that IRIAF was even allowed to purchase SU-35S and Yaks for billions of USD. So all in all, we can change faces but unless someone fixes the system and decision making, nothing will change. If Russia shows its true face to Iran once again after the Ukraine war is over and SU-35S deliveries are halted, which I feel will happen like before, does Iran has an alternative 4.5 gen air superiority fighter in sight?

Btw General Soleimani was a brilliant battlefield tactician only, world acknowledged and a legendary one nonetheless, but he was not a military strategist by any means. He, like the rest of the dinosaur generals in IRGC, Artesh also believed in militias + paramilitary units, human factor etc. An very wise battlefield commander but not somebody with strategic level vision to modernize the military.

Oui, these guys really know how to muddy the water!

Thanks for the layout on top.

What really disappoints me about this Mindex Catalog is that it is marked 2025.

Why put 12 - 15 year old data to a weapon, Fakour in this instance, if more current info was (is) already surmised by people who have an interest in Iran's munitions products?

The only salvation that I see in the eventual demise of Fakour - and possibly -90B, is that the technology pertaining can be built upon for a slim-downed BVRAAM such as the reclusive Arash for instance.

Piet

The same website also provides an order cart for the missiles so I would not take it too seriously.

Depends upon which organization in Iran takes up the project (hypothetically). Fakour-90 comes from Shahid Babaie Missile Industries which previously provided Mersad AD missiles Shahin and Shalamche as well. They also gave AIM-54+ (overualed phoenix), Azaraksh HOBS, Herz and Ya-Zahra SHORADS. If they are awarded the contract, then maybe they can minimize the Fakour-90's seeker, ECCM, Nav-Comm into an AIM-7E2 body with more powerful motor to make a slim BVRAAM in R-77E category. But my question remains, for which aircraft will this missile be made for? Kowsar project seem done here if Yak-130M is acquired in higher numbers, IRIAF seems in no mood to order the Yasin AT either. YAK-130 may seem to reach ~30 as frontline AT and may even take up a role for LIFT/AT+CAS. Remember the entire fleet of MIG-29, SU-24, SU-30/35S pilots will have to be trained on this single platform.

Russian planes in Iran will have their own R-60/73/77/27/37 so I am not seeing any utility for Iranian slimmer BVR until they surprise us with actual Qaher Wingman flying which frankly I dont see happening. Fakour-90 (and Maghsoud), AIM-54+ (refurbished by same company), Fattar (refurbished+upgraded AIM-9J), Arash AIM-7 project if there ever was one beyond mockup, AIM-7E2 all are gonna be done with the American and Iranian planes in IRIAF retiring. Azarakhsh HOBS already has a role as SHORAD so it survived.

RD-500B ?
you are sure it was the RD-500B
Because the Klimov RD-500 was a copy of the Derwent V and was used on early Soviet jets in the late 1940s early 1950s'
I was aware that the Shafagh AT had to have the Klimov RD-33

*RD-5000B ...

Typo

 

[Immortals]

Mobin ALCM/UCAV. Kinda similar to Storm Shadow, tested, offered for 10+ years. IRIAF was not interested or lacked budget, otherwise SU-24MK, F-4E/D can launch 3 of them in a single flight. With an RCS <0.1 m^2 they can easily bypass many ADs with ease. Because of modular design, can also serve as a EW platform (UAV role).

MIG-29, 72 ordered, 22 arrived
MIG-31, 24 ordered Never arrived.
MIG-27 + TU-22 (or the M version?) unknown numbers demanded.
SU-24, 32 were ordered, 6 arrived.
RD-500B, 50 Turbofans ordered for Shafagh AT, never arrived.
S-300PMU2 delayed but arrived.
Kilo Class Submarine Retrofit/upgrade was refused so done domestically.
IrAn-140 were built out of AN-140 CKDs.

Rumors/Considerations
Mirage F-1 was offered to Khatami during talks with US. Not sure how true this is.
Moldovan MIG-29 were purchased by US after CIA found Iranian secret attempt.
SU-27SM2/3 was offered, but Iran refused it in favor of SU-35S.
J-10A/B was evaluated, but IRIAF rejected it in favor of SU-35S.

Mobin was such a great project. Instead we need 10 different predator/MALE clone drones to do the same job.

Iran’s military industrial complex is becoming like the U.S. - political and trend following.

 

[ToddE]

Mobin was such a great project. Instead we need 10 different predator/MALE clone drones to do the same job.

Mobin ended up being what I believe local ALBM projects will become. These people have ZERO understanding of modern warfare. Surprisingly, they clash with US, NATO and Israel yet refuse to adapt.

Iran’s military industrial complex is becoming like the U.S. - political and trend following.

It always was like that. Parallel ego projects have been happening for almost 15+ years now. Prototype after prototype to cash in the seed money but no actual production.

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

Wow, a propagandist of Wikipedia science is pouring his manure here by saying this:

- These people have NO understanding of modern warfare. -

Wow!!! This guy thinks he is more brilliant, more informed, more visionary than hundreds of generals, thousands of soldiers, thousands of Iranian scientists.

We need not just moderators here but psychologists and psychiatrists because there are people here who suffer seriously from pathological narcissistic disorder. Seriously, there are people here who should respond to this kind of high demagogy.

 

[Kyussis]

Wow, a propagandist of Wikipedia science is pouring his manure here by saying this:

- These people have NO understanding of modern warfare. -

Wow!!! This guy thinks he is more brilliant, more informed, more visionary than hundreds of generals, thousands of soldiers, thousands of Iranian scientists.

We need not just moderators here but psychologists and psychiatrists because there are people here who suffer seriously from pathological narcissistic disorder. Seriously, there are people here who should respond to this kind of high demagogy.

 

[ToddE]

Wow, a propagandist of Wikipedia science is pouring his manure here by saying this:

- These people have NO understanding of modern warfare. -

Wow!!! This guy thinks he is more brilliant, more informed, more visionary than hundreds of generals, thousands of soldiers, thousands of Iranian scientists.

We need not just moderators here but psychologists and psychiatrists because there are people here who suffer seriously from pathological narcissistic disorder. Seriously, there are people here who should respond to this kind of high demagogy.

You should go back to your AI controlled secret kowsars and invisible fleet of Qahers, Stealth F-4 "SM" and what not. Your "Visionary Generals" of IRIAF are selling you PR stunts for decades and you are buying it all because your peanut brain thinks the world buys it as well. Well, I have got news for you, no one does, especially the enemies of Iran do not.

 

[Kyussis]

You should go back to your AI controlled secret kowsars and invisible fleet of Qahers, Stealth F-4 "SM" and what not. Your "Visionary Generals" of IRIAF are selling you PR stunts for decades and you are buying it all because your peanut brain thinks the world buys it as well. Well, I have got news for you, no one does, especially the enemies of Iran do not. What a clown.

IRIAF should have bought F-22 and B-1s in the thousands. What idiots!

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

The F-4 Super modify or improve its asset, It's reality!

The Kowsar using elements of the AI with the drones are factual. You do science from Wikipedia, you know nothing in fact, but in the very near future you and some people here will be humiliated by the facts. The IRIAF is boiling a lot and we are starting to see results..

Iran has been demonstrating for a few weeks that their military industry is very active with lots of announcements and it's not over. You have to be very blind and in very bad faith not to see the results from week to week.

No, you have no news for me, you are just in your pathological narcism but you don't know much in fact.

Sorry but this sentence:

- These people have NO understanding of modern warfare. -

This is the stupidest statement I have ever made since I started on the old forum. Even a clown in a circus wouldn't have dared to say that because it's so far from the truth.

The Qahers 60% drone version is here and you're shaking in your underwear to see them fly. The piloted version, we'll see it soon and once again, you'll be humiliated

 

[mack8]

Mobin ALCM/UCAV. Kinda similar to Storm Shadow, tested, offered for 10+ years. IRIAF was not interested or lacked budget, otherwise SU-24MK, F-4E/D can launch 3 of them in a single flight. With an RCS <0.1 m^2 they can easily bypass many ADs with ease. Because of modular design, can also serve as a EW platform (UAV role).

MIG-29, 72 ordered, 22 arrived
MIG-31, 24 ordered Never arrived.
MIG-27 + TU-22 (or the M version?) unknown numbers demanded.
SU-24, 32 were ordered, 6 arrived.
RD-500B, 50 Turbofans ordered for Shafagh AT, never arrived.
S-300PMU2 delayed but arrived.
Kilo Class Submarine Retrofit/upgrade was refused so done domestically.
IrAn-140 were built out of AN-140 CKDs.

Rumors/Considerations
Mirage F-1 was offered to Khatami during talks with US. Not sure how true this is.
Moldovan MIG-29 were purchased by US after CIA found Iranian secret attempt.
SU-27SM2/3 was offered, but Iran refused it in favor of SU-35S.
J-10A/B was evaluated, but IRIAF rejected it in favor of SU-35S.

Thanks for your input, yeah Mobin seems like an incredibly stupid missed opportunity. Everybody and their dog has ALCMs now, and they have proven their worth. ALCMS and ALBMS are the must haves now for any serious airforce.

To the list above one can add iirc 2 A-50AEWs, intended to be ordered at the same time with the 24 MiG-27 and 12 Tu-22Ms. In more recent times, do you remember about the rumours for Su-27SMs (which you mentioned) and some Su-30s (the Belarus ex-indian ones?) at the time Iran gave Iraq back the Su-25s (iirc 2014), how many of the Su-27/30 were rumoured?

But yeah, overall, nevermind the fact that nothing could be brought from Russia due to first the corrupt alcoholic Yeltsyn and then even Putin caving in to US pressure, the fact that Iran couldn't get at least some airframes on the black market is astonishing, such as the moldavian MiG-29 or other airframes from Belarus, Ukraine, any of the ex-soviet 'Stans or even Russia itself. DPRK despite it's limited resources still got some extra MiG-29s and MiG-21bises, Syria got some extra MiG-23MLDs as well as upgrades for MiG-29 and Su-24 plus extra airframes for both etc.