bunyan-al-marsous: JF-17A delivering CM-400AKG

[hydrabadi_arab]

There is burden of proof and concept of "Devil's Proof" in legal scholarship. Basically who gets to provide the evidence. Usually it is one who makes the claim.

That being said, there is circumstantial evidence (though marred with propaganda) of Indian S-400s in Adampur being unaffected.

First is satellite images of that base. And second is Modi's own visit (which surely had some Propaganda element to it).

View attachment 120419

S-400 is in the background.

That photo doesn't prove Pakistan wrong. Pakistan targeted C2 vehicles and radar of S400.

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Looks like Modi PR is going out of their way to hide damage.

 

[SteppeWolff]

What's it mean 'bunyanun marsoor' ?

Bunyan-un-marsoos*

= Lead infilled wall.

Urdu or Arabic ? Something from the Islamic holy scripture ?

Quranic Reference, yes

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

A lot of scientific truths are “proven” - the entire structure of the atom was revealed in various “truths” until the model is still being refined at the quantum level.

Now what evidence individuals give ranges from detailed experiments, methodology for that experiment, repeatability of results and so on.

Apply that to a conflict - then it comes down to evidence from electronic spectrum - from Imagery both photographic and from FLIR and other types. Synthetic Aperture images if Battlefield Damage Assessments were done and so on.

Pakistanis has claimed the S-400 - but so far has not provided anything to support it other than piecemeal unrelated images.

India for that matter has not “disproven” the claim either.

bulls eye! observer's dilemma

 

[Oscar]

There is burden of proof and concept of "Devil's Proof" in legal scholarship. Basically who gets to provide the evidence. Usually it is one who makes the claim.

That being said, there is circumstantial evidence (though marred with propaganda) of Indian S-400s in Adampur being unaffected.

First is satellite images of that base. And second is Modi's own visit (which surely had some Propaganda element to it).

View attachment 120419

S-400 is in the background.

I don’t think satellite images would completely dismiss Pakistani accounts of targeting radar (that is what CM400 was sent for) nor would it be dismissive proof.

Quite simply, from a pure doctrinal purpose if a high value system such as the S-400 has been pinpointed - then regardless of whether it was hit or not it is immediately relocated to prevent any follow up strikes.

So whether its the same system, not the same system - Why is Modi there? Is all too muddy.

Either way - there is no such thing as destroyed as many Pakistani accounts are claiming. Degraded perhaps - and let’s assume it was then it is taken as a win from a purely military “we know it” and if it wasn’t then it is also a win for Indian military because “they think it’s out”

 

[Thinking]

We don’t know what we dont know. Although Modi’s speech highlights Indian weapons for a good reason. Hearing from this side too that Indian made SHORADS have a good account of themselves against Pakistani drones.

Both sides used different mechanisms to tackle unmanned systems - Pakistan combined a lot of soft kill with hard kill on whatever was termed dangerous vs India was all hard kill.

True. Both sides are lying through their teeth. On Indian side, we did fly our home made drones, tested our homemade AD systems etc..Indian homegrown defense industry is about to get a big boost.

 

[Oscar]

True. Both sides are lying through their teeth. On Indian side, we did fly our home made drones, tested our homemade AD systems etc..Indian homegrown defense industry is about to get a big boost.

If I were you guys - I would go and grab every one of your individuals boasting about Rafale and also those responsible for the absolute worst mismanagement when it comes to indigenous aircraft programs by the collars.

At the end of the day - you can call them crappy - underperforming - whatever. But Iran’s missiles are its own. Same way - Astra may OR may not be as good as Meteor or AIM-260 or whatever . But its your own and will have no limit - same with SAMs.

Every country designs its systems for their own ecosystem - India should completely pivot away from foreign systems now.

Because despite all pushes from many Indian members - Pakistani pilots have sat in rafales - done exercises with them - and then take intel from operators - same with S-400. Just as Indian pilots have done so for F-16.

Try as it might Indian military can never FLY the J-10C unless it defects or lets say BD or Egypt gets them and shows them. More importantly - other than Myanmar India has little exposure to JF-17 regardless of how Indian commentators feel about it just as Pakistan has little to Tejas (although it mattered little in this situation). But Pakistani pilots know the Su-30 platform - have flown it - including the similies to MKi in service with other forces.

Unless its completely yours - it’s difficult to hide capabilities.

Tactics are always unique but the more you can keep close to your chest the better.

 

[Olympus81]

Bunyan-un-marsoos*

= Lead infilled wall.


Quranic Reference, yes

Reference from Quran and incidentally this verse was also marked in the mosque that was targeted by the IAF.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

True. Both sides are lying through their teeth. On Indian side, we did fly our home made drones, tested our homemade AD systems etc..Indian homegrown defense industry is about to get a big boost.

huh?!!!!! LMAO.... two boxes

 

[Thinking]

If I were you guys - I would go and grab every one of your individuals boasting about Rafale and also those responsible for the absolute worst mismanagement when it comes to indigenous aircraft programs by the collars.

At the end of the day - you can call them crappy - underperforming - whatever. But Iran’s missiles are its own. Same way - Astra may OR may not be as good as Meteor or AIM-260 or whatever . But its your own and will have no limit - same with SAMs.

Every country designs its systems for their own ecosystem - India should completely pivot away from foreign systems now.

Agree totally. Israeli drone for example were average at best. India is finally building a defense ecosystem. Next 10 years are going to see a dramatic shift. Ofcourse cracking big things like engines, planes, nuclear subs etc. will take time. I see 100% Indian made drones, AD systems, missiles, canons, armored vehicles,....Most low end items and some medium level items will be all home made.

 

[Vox Non Dei]

I don’t think satellite images would completely dismiss Pakistani accounts of targeting radar (that is what CM400 was sent for) nor would it be dismissive proof.

Quite simply, from a pure doctrinal purpose if a high value system such as the S-400 has been pinpointed - then regardless of whether it was hit or not it is immediately relocated to prevent any follow up strikes.

So whether its the same system, not the same system - Why is Modi there? Is all too muddy.

Either way - there is no such thing as destroyed as many Pakistani accounts are claiming. Degraded perhaps - and let’s assume it was then it is taken as a win from a purely military “we know it” and if it wasn’t then it is also a win for Indian military because “they think it’s out”

Look, I am pretty sure Modi is there for a reason, most likely propaganda, but do remember that picture is just one frame from a video actually. The video is much longer and does not really focus on S-400 at all.

Now, when it comes to satellite images, they can capture if some kind of damage had occurred because something moving at 4 or 5 Mach hitting ground will leave burn marks etc. Those have not been seen.

Its like 2019 all over again, though this time Pakistan is the one without evidence. Its very similar to Indian claims of shooting F-16 or hitting those targets in Balakot. There is no evidence to back either of those.

 

[Oscar]

Look, I am pretty sure Modi is there for a reason, most likely propaganda, but do remember that picture is just one frame from a video actually. The video is much longer and does not really focus on S-400 at all.

Now, when it comes to satellite images, they can capture if some kind of damage had occurred because something moving at 4 or 5 Mach hitting ground will leave burn marks etc. Those have not been seen.

Its like 2019 all over again, though this time Pakistan is the one without evidence. Its very similar to Indian claims of shooting F-16 or hitting those targets in Balakot. There is no evidence to back either of those.

We don’t know what we don’t know.
I don’t believe Pakistani claims but neither side is unscathed.

 

[Vox Non Dei]

If I were you guys - I would go and grab every one of your individuals boasting about Rafale and also those responsible for the absolute worst mismanagement when it comes to indigenous aircraft programs by the collars.

If it were up to me, war planners would be getting a belt treatment.

India did not deploy any AWACS during first night of raid. The entire Spotter, Shooter and Guide is missing from kill chain. Likely those Rafales were not flying with Meteor as well because in the videos we saw no parts of meteor and only MICA launcher.

Indian airforce basically failed network centric air battle.

I believe there was an assumption among Indian war planners that Indian jets will be safe inside Indian airspace and they did not go for proper plan to shoot PAF jets because for them that mission was about just shooting ground attack ordinance at a standoff range. This is a major oversight.

 

[Oscar]

If it were up to me, war planners would be getting a belt treatment.

India did not deploy any AWACS during first night of raid. The entire Spotter, Shooter and Guide is missing from kill chain. Likely those Rafales were not flying with Meteor as well because in the videos we saw no parts of meteor and only MICA launcher.

Indian airforce basically failed network centric air battle.

The question is why?

After all - if I plan something - I plan it with intelligence and then add contingencies for it.
If you’re amassing a strike package and also have systems geared for providing the longest stick(MKi for whatever upgrades claimed or not does not have the longest stick) - why leave it out?

Where was the indigenous Netra? Its your own isn’t it?
Where was MASSIVE EW component both in the air and on the ground that India has?

 

[Thinking]

The question is why?

After all - if I plan something - I plan it with intelligence and then add contingencies for it.
If you’re amassing a strike package and also have systems geared for providing the longest stick(MKi for whatever upgrades claimed or not does not have the longest stick) - why leave it out?

Where was the indigenous Netra? Its your own isn’t it?
Where was MASSIVE EW component both in the air and on the ground that India has?

Either none of that works or they were dumb enough to underestimate the reach of PL-15 or "help" from China.

 

[Vox Non Dei]

The question is why?

After all - if I plan something - I plan it with intelligence and then add contingencies for it.
If you’re amassing a strike package and also have systems geared for providing the longest stick(MKi for whatever upgrades claimed or not does not have the longest stick) - why leave it out?

Where was the indigenous Netra? Its your own isn’t it?
Where was MASSIVE EW component both in the air and on the ground that India has?

I believe the reason was diplomacy. I believe MEA wanted to show that India is not invading or going on a war with Pakistan but was only punishing terrorists. This was visible in all the narrative built before the attack.

So, they chose a strike package which they believed was something that can be hidden and be used as an attack launching platform. Flying a AWACS signals readiness for air combat. I think a lot of this comes from their past experience of 2019, where they were able to do a strike (successful or failed is another question altogether) while keeping their strike aircrafts safe (they key "lesson" they took).

After strike, their entire message was on "non-escalatory, proportional and not targetting military of Pakistan". Which shows what kind of narrative they were going for.

India has a habit of mixing diplomacy in war fighting, for often rather stupid results.