JF-17 PFX program

[Quwa]

I don't know. Maybe something smaller is better for Pakistan.

For example, these are all UCAVs that carry other weapons. But MAYBE what Pakistan really needs is not 10 big weapon carrying UCAVs but 1000 smaller UCAVs that can act as decoys and LMs. Closer to a target drone than to a manned jet. I'm not saying one is needed more than the other, just that this question needs to be asked first.

IMO that is the general development track.

The drone you're talking about would basically be a scaled up evolution of an existing target drone or jet-powered loitering munition (e.g., KaGeM V3, Rasoob 250, AZB-81LR) type program.

In fact, this should be the next step because literally everything to do it is right there across both NESCOM and NASTP.

That said, I'd still push for a larger UCAV in addition to the small one (e.g., CATS Warrior or YFQ-42/44-sized) with an internal weapons load.

It'd serve two main functions: be a scalable AAM launcher in the air (slaved to NGFAs and AEW&C for fire control) and SEAD/DEAD option to be used alongside the scaled-up LM you're describing.

 

[Michael]

But our requirements are not of F35 type.
We just need a stealthy fighter jet to replace jf17 which already has limited radar range and sensors performance as compared to J10C and Rafales etc, but still proved its worth.
Pfx and Jf17-pfx alpha are different jets.
Pfx alpha jf17 is initial phase of pfx.

You have a serious comprehension problem here ......

I have answered your questions very carefully, but you are still obsessed.

A 5th-Gen fighter has a higher power requirement than a 4.5th-Gen fighter.

The current JF-17B3+RD93 combo is effectively the equivalent of an adult but with the heart of a teenager. He has well-developed muscles, an agile body and an intelligent mind, but his heart is not capable of supplying enough blood. He needs to deploy the use of all functions and cannot work at high load for a long time.
The JF-17B3 is equipped with the avionics of many 4.5th-Gen fighters, but these electronic devices do not work at the same time or for long periods of time.The JF-17B3 is not equipped with IRST, which is found in all modern mainstream fighters, because of the lack of power supply. A JF-17B3 + WS-21/WS-19 combo would basically balance it out and make it a complete 4.5th-Gen fighter.

To date, no medium thrust turbofan engine has been able to lift the JF-17 to 5th-Gen fighter standards. This is the core reason why no one in the world has made a light 5th-Gen fighter.

If we use two medium thrust engines (WS-19/WS-21), it would be similar to J-35/KF-21/AMCA. medium fighter jet
If we use a single high thrust engine (WS-10/WS-15), it would be similar to the F-35. medium fighter jet
If we use two high-thrust engines (WS-10/WS-15), then it is similar to J-20/F-22/Su-57/KAAN. heavy fighter jet

Still don't get it?

 

[Ak01]

The JF-17B3 is equipped with the avionics of many 4.5th-Gen fighters, but these electronic devices do not work at the same time or for long periods of time.The JF-17B3 is not equipped with IRST, which is found in all modern mainstream fighters, because of the lack of power supply. A JF-17B3 + WS-21/WS-19 combo would basically balance it out and make it a complete 4.5th-Gen fighter.

i LOVE when people make this claim.

So enlighten us, whats the RD-93's power generation capacity and also what is the JF-17s required power?

Do share, since you clearly know the numbers.

 

[Khan090]

You have a serious comprehension problem here ......

I have answered your questions very carefully, but you are still obsessed.

A 5th-Gen fighter has a higher power requirement than a 4.5th-Gen fighter.

The current JF-17B3+RD93 combo is effectively the equivalent of an adult but with the heart of a teenager. He has well-developed muscles, an agile body and an intelligent mind, but his heart is not capable of supplying enough blood. He needs to deploy the use of all functions and cannot work at high load for a long time.
The JF-17B3 is equipped with the avionics of many 4.5th-Gen fighters, but these electronic devices do not work at the same time or for long periods of time.The JF-17B3 is not equipped with IRST, which is found in all modern mainstream fighters, because of the lack of power supply. A JF-17B3 + WS-21/WS-19 combo would basically balance it out and make it a complete 4.5th-Gen fighter.

To date, no medium thrust turbofan engine has been able to lift the JF-17 to 5th-Gen fighter standards. This is the core reason why no one in the world has made a light 5th-Gen fighter.

If we use two medium thrust engines (WS-19/WS-21), it would be similar to J-35/KF-21/AMCA. medium fighter jet
If we use a single high thrust engine (WS-10/WS-15), it would be similar to the F-35. medium fighter jet
If we use two high-thrust engines (WS-10/WS-15), then it is similar to J-20/F-22/Su-57/KAAN. heavy fighter jet

Still don't get it?

Firstly JF17 Block 3 comes with RD93MA engine not RD93.
Second PFX is not the need of today but at least 10-15 years from today.
Russian Al-51F1 and Chinese WS15 may provide enough thrust and power for our pfx requirements.
We are not making a high-end fighter like F22 or J20!
It will be a lighter fighter as compared to them and some compromise on some features maybe made.
We are not thinking of trying to compete chinese in this Industry but will benefit from chinese expertise or may get some turkish help.
PFX will be a "low" in PAF's "high-low mix" strategy.
Regards.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

Dear In my personal view, you consider the PFX a proper 5th Gen jet, while I don't see it that way. I believe its capabilities place it somewhere between the JF-17 and the J-35/Kaan, intended to replace the JF-17 in the future. A strict 5th Gen or 4.5th Gen definition cannot be entirely applied to it.

You have a serious comprehension problem here ......

I have answered your questions very carefully, but you are still obsessed.

A 5th-Gen fighter has a higher power requirement than a 4.5th-Gen fighter.

The current JF-17B3+RD93 combo is effectively the equivalent of an adult but with the heart of a teenager. He has well-developed muscles, an agile body and an intelligent mind, but his heart is not capable of supplying enough blood. He needs to deploy the use of all functions and cannot work at high load for a long time.
The JF-17B3 is equipped with the avionics of many 4.5th-Gen fighters, but these electronic devices do not work at the same time or for long periods of time.The JF-17B3 is not equipped with IRST, which is found in all modern mainstream fighters, because of the lack of power supply. A JF-17B3 + WS-21/WS-19 combo would basically balance it out and make it a complete 4.5th-Gen fighter.

To date, no medium thrust turbofan engine has been able to lift the JF-17 to 5th-Gen fighter standards. This is the core reason why no one in the world has made a light 5th-Gen fighter.

If we use two medium thrust engines (WS-19/WS-21), it would be similar to J-35/KF-21/AMCA. medium fighter jet
If we use a single high thrust engine (WS-10/WS-15), it would be similar to the F-35. medium fighter jet
If we use two high-thrust engines (WS-10/WS-15), then it is similar to J-20/F-22/Su-57/KAAN. heavy fighter jet

Still don't get it?

If I had to explain what PFX is, I would simplify things like this:

What it looks like to me is that PFX is actually not one but three blocks or iteration of the JF-17:

• JF-17 Block-4 (JF17P):A 4.5 generation jet, an indigenized JF-17 Block 3 with some improvements.
  • Further development of Block 3 with some systems improvements.
  • Increased indigenization/localization/Make in Pakistan components.
  • Integration of more weapon systems, both locally made and foreign-imported from friendly countries.
  • May include an upgrade program for Block 1 and 2.

• JF-17 Block-5 (JF17 Alpha):A 4.5+ generation jet, similar to the transition from Gripen C/D to Gripen E/F (But not proper medium weight).
  • Further development with a better engine (WS21) and some structural changes with slight enlargement, without significantly altering the overall design parameters.
  • Increased indigenization/localization/Make in Pakistan components.
  • Integration of more weapon systems, both locally made and foreign-imported from friendly countries.

• JF-17 Block-6 (JF17 PFX or PFX):A 4.5++ (or 5 minus) generation semi-stealth jet, similar to a lightweight, single-engine KFX Block-1.
  • Further development with some stealth design and features.
  • Likely to be a purely Pakistani fighter, not joint fighter, nor 100% locally made. (although with the assistance of China, Turkey, and other friendly countries).

Regarding Timelines consider around 4 year (+/- 1 year) for each block.


P.S.: Please note that this is just my understanding of what PFX is. I do not have any insider information.

If I had to explain what PFX is, I would simplify things like this:

What it looks like to me is that PFX is actually not one but three blocks of the JF-17:

• JF-17 Block-4 (JF17P):A 4.5 generation jet, an indigenized JF-17 Block 3 with some improvements.
  • Further development of Block 3 with some systems improvements.
  • Increased indigenization/localization/Make in Pakistan components.
  • Integration of more weapon systems, both locally made and foreign-imported from friendly countries.
  • May include an upgrade program for Block 1 and 2.

• JF-17 Block-5 (JF17 Alpha):A 4.5+ generation jet, similar to the transition from Gripen C/D to Gripen E/F (But not proper medium weight).
  • Further development with a better engine and some structural changes with slight enlargement, without significantly altering the overall design parameters.
  • Increased indigenization/localization/Make in Pakistan components.
  • Integration of more weapon systems, both locally made and foreign-imported from friendly countries.

• JF-17 Block-6 (JF17 PFX or PFX):A 4.5++ (or 5 minus) generation semi-stealth jet, similar to a lightweight, single-engine KFX Block-1.
  • Further development with some stealth design and features.
  • Likely to be a purely Pakistani fighter, not joint fighter, nor 100% locally made. (although with the assistance of China, Turkey, and other friendly countries).

Regarding Timelines consider around 4 year (+/- 1 year) for each block.


P.S.: Please note that this is just my understanding of what PFX is. I do not have any insider information.

 

[Michael]

Firstly JF17 Block 3 comes with RD93MA engine not RD93.
Second PFX is not the need of today but at least 10-15 years from today.
Russian Al-51F1 and Chinese WS15 may provide enough thrust and power for our pfx requirements.
We are not making a high-end fighter like F22 or J20!
It will be a lighter fighter as compared to them and some compromise on some features maybe made.
We are not thinking of trying to compete chinese in this Industry but will benefit from chinese expertise or may get some turkish help.
PFX will be a "low" in PAF's "high-low mix" strategy.
Regards.

Please go back to your original vision! This is the center of our dispute!

PFX will purely be a fifth gen fighter jet.
On the other hand PFX will be a single engine 5th gen jet to form the future backbone of Pakistan Air Force.

If it is equipped with a single high-thrust turbofan engine (AL-51/WS-15), it will be upgraded to a medium-sized fighter. This overlaps with the J-35's positioning. A country does not need to use two 5th-Gen fighters at the same time.

I'll give you some data to help you understand.

1. The performance improvement of the RD-93MA over the RD-93 is small (about 10%), with the main improvement being in launch life rather than performance. Its maximum generating power: 30~45KW. when its generating power exceeds 30KW, the propulsion provided to the fighter by the engine starts to show a decline. When its generating power approaches 45KW, the fighter cannot perform mission maneuvers that consume energy.
The 4.5th-Gen fighters, depending on different configurations (different levels of sophistication), the maximum power consumption is usually around 40~70KW.
The minimum standard for 5th-Gen fighters is 150+KW. The current 5th-Gen fighters (F-22/F35/J-20/J-35/Su-57) all have engines that provide a maximum power generation of 150~200KW. the KF-21/KAAN/AMCA, They have engines now that are not up to that standard. They actually belong to the 4.5th-Gen fighters now.

2. There are a lot of avionics equipment on the fighter jet. Flight control system, mission computer, radar, EWS, warning system, navigation system, cockpit system, communication and data link ......

I only analyze the radar system of JF-17B3. Please understand other systems on your own.

The KLJ-7A radar was originally available in three versions. A base version (liquid-cooled heat sink) and two higher-order versions (mechanically deflected array antenna/side-view antenna array).
However, PAF ended up customizing a special version of the base version for the JF-17B3. The antenna area was reduced (lowering the number of T/R modules), and the cooling was changed from liquid-cooled to air-cooled (lowering the energy consumption of the cooling system). It fits the nose size of the JF-17, and at the same time it consumes much less power, making it easy to accomplish the modification. Of course, the cost was also lower. However, the performance is also drastically reduced.

KLJ-7A radar. The maximum power of one T/R module is 10~15W (limited by heat dissipation capacity). If calculated based on 1000 T/R modules, the maximum power will be 10~15KW. This does not include the power consumption power of the other parts of the whole radar (thermal management system, back-end processing system, auxiliary sensors and calibration system, etc.).

According to some in-depth research data, the thermal management system of the KLJ-7A air-cooled version of the JF-17B3 radar can only support a maximum of 8KW.
Yes, it is a radar whose performance is “severely curtailed” because of “the lack of blood supply to its heart”. But PAF made that choice!

 

[Khan090]

Please go back to your original vision! This is the center of our dispute!

If it is equipped with a single high-thrust turbofan engine (AL-51/WS-15), it will be upgraded to a medium-sized fighter. This overlaps with the J-35's positioning. A country does not need to use two 5th-Gen fighters at the same time.

I'll give you some data to help you understand.

1. The performance improvement of the RD-93MA over the RD-93 is small (about 10%), with the main improvement being in launch life rather than performance. Its maximum generating power: 30~45KW. when its generating power exceeds 30KW, the propulsion provided to the fighter by the engine starts to show a decline. When its generating power approaches 45KW, the fighter cannot perform mission maneuvers that consume energy.
The 4.5th-Gen fighters, depending on different configurations (different levels of sophistication), the maximum power consumption is usually around 40~70KW.
The minimum standard for 5th-Gen fighters is 150+KW. The current 5th-Gen fighters (F-22/F35/J-20/J-35/Su-57) all have engines that provide a maximum power generation of 150~200KW. the KF-21/KAAN/AMCA, They have engines now that are not up to that standard. They actually belong to the 4.5th-Gen fighters now.

2. There are a lot of avionics equipment on the fighter jet. Flight control system, mission computer, radar, EWS, warning system, navigation system, cockpit system, communication and data link ......

I only analyze the radar system of JF-17B3. Please understand other systems on your own.

The KLJ-7A radar was originally available in three versions. A base version (liquid-cooled heat sink) and two higher-order versions (mechanically deflected array antenna/side-view antenna array).
However, PAF ended up customizing a special version of the base version for the JF-17B3. The antenna area was reduced (lowering the number of T/R modules), and the cooling was changed from liquid-cooled to air-cooled (lowering the energy consumption of the cooling system). It fits the nose size of the JF-17, and at the same time it consumes much less power, making it easy to accomplish the modification. Of course, the cost was also lower. However, the performance is also drastically reduced.

KLJ-7A radar. The maximum power of one T/R module is 10~15W (limited by heat dissipation capacity). If calculated based on 1000 T/R modules, the maximum power will be 10~15KW. This does not include the power consumption power of the other parts of the whole radar (thermal management system, back-end processing system, auxiliary sensors and calibration system, etc.).

According to some in-depth research data, the thermal management system of the KLJ-7A air-cooled version of the JF-17B3 radar can only support a maximum of 8KW.
Yes, it is a radar whose performance is “severely curtailed” because of “the lack of blood supply to its heart”. But PAF made that choice!

What you think, why PAF went for JF17 (the inferior one) when a better option as J10 was there?
We needed J10 like medium weight (relatively high end) fighters to perform some crucial and role playing tasks. Still we heavily invested and went for over 170+ jf17s as it quickly fill gaps in a cost effective manner and carries out routine tasks and can be used as a good interceptor when used along with AEWACS and is rapidly deployable.
And you say no country needs two different 5th gen platforms.
See history of Pakistan, we never relied on a single type of jet or jets from a single source.
Plus should we just have J35 in future?
Imagine an Air Force with just a single type of jets in future!
As JF17 was inducted despite laging behind J10 so will be pfx for J35 and Kaan.

 

[Khan090]

And how can we rely on just J35 as it can be easily shot down by Tejas Mk1A given the high agility, maneuverability and superior BVR Astra missiles of Tejas.
Source: Indian public and social media experts allegedly referring Chatgpt.

 

[Michael]

What you think, why PAF went for JF17 (the inferior one) when a better option as J10 was there?
We needed J10 like medium weight (relatively high end) fighters to perform some crucial and role playing tasks. Still we heavily invested and went for over 170+ jf17s as it quickly fill gaps in a cost effective manner and carries out routine tasks and can be used as a good interceptor when used along with AEWACS and is rapidly deployable.

No one thinks the JF-17 is inferior, except for your statement. Most people consider the JF-17B3 to be the best light fighter on the planet today.

However, you are wrong to use the same class of light fighter to compare it to a medium fighter. You need to be well aware that there is a significant price difference between the JF-17B3 and the J-10CE. If their performance is exactly the same, why do we build so many J-10C's and who buys J-10CE's?

At the same time, the 5th-Gen stealth fighter has some drawbacks, and it needs some non-stealthy 4.5th-Gen fighters to work in tandem and make up for its shortcomings.

So, your point (PFX is a light 5th-Gen fighter) is a mission impossible.

However, if we design it as a stealthy version of a UCAV, it is achievable with existing technology.

And you say no country needs two different 5th gen platforms.

It is correct to say that no country would deploy two of the same class of 5th-Gen fighters at the same time.

China, US, Russia, deploy/plan two different classes of 5th-Gen fighters at the same time.

USA: F-35 series medium fighter / F-22 series heavy fighter
China: J-35 series medium fighters/J-20 series heavy fighters
Russia: Su-57 series medium fighters/Su-75 series heavy fighters

Pakistan's planned pairing combinations:
FC-31 Medium Fighter/KAAN Heavy Fighter

This picture below shows the PLA's fighter portfolio now and long into the future.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

JF-17 - Block 4 (PFX) will be a plane which will be similar to F-18 Hornet
4.5 Gen with local Avionics (Radars, EW) and Missile systems (Local BVR)

JF17 DNA is F-16
JF17-PFX inspiration would be operational standard of F-18

• Structurally , F-18 is just different Machine and character

• Can PFX plane be modified to carry more weapons?
• Can PFX endure longer duration flight?
• Is Block III Engine enough for Block IV?
• Will local Avionics perform at certain level ?
• How will the new BVR missile perform ?
• Will we have a new radar ?

The Stealth characteristics perhaps are more suited for F-35.

Demanding stealth characteristics would be an over achievement on
JF17-Block 4

Block IV , if it attains bigger size and Local tech would be a nice Machine to anticipate it's arrival

 

[Oscar]

i LOVE when people make this claim.

So enlighten us, whats the RD-93's power generation capacity and also what is the JF-17s required power?

Do share, since you clearly know the numbers.

I may not know the numbers but I do know there were non-Pakistani and non-Chinese from the Asian continent staying/visiting Kamra well into the development/in service of Block-2.

 

[Quwa]

I may not know the numbers but I do know there were non-Pakistani and non-Chinese from the Asian continent staying/visiting Kamra well into the development/in service of Block-2.

tbh...The radar vs power output argument may have been valid to an extent in the past. Generally, one of the main drawbacks of early AESA radars (GaA) was that they were power-hungry (700~1000+ TRMs!) and the smallest known platforms to carry them were the F-16E/F and F-2, i.e., one a heavily customized variant of the F-16, and the other an enlarged derivative.

This began changing around the period late-stage GaA TRMs entered the market, e.g., Leonardo Raven and KLJ-7A, i.e., mid-to-late 2010s.

However, by now, this shouldn't even be an issue as GaN TRMs are the norm in all new radars, including the one being developed for PFX Alpha. I mean, we have AESA radars for MALE drones now.

 

[Ak01]

tbh...The radar vs power output argument may have been valid to an extent in the past. Generally, one of the main drawbacks of early AESA radars (GaA) was that they were power-hungry (700~1000+ TRMs!) and the smallest known platforms to carry them were the F-16E/F and F-2, i.e., one a heavily customized variant of the F-16, and the other an enlarged derivative.

This began changing around the period late-stage GaA TRMs entered the market, e.g., Leonardo Raven and KLJ-7A, i.e., mid-to-late 2010s.

However, by now, this shouldn't even be an issue as GaN TRMs are the norm in all new radars, including the one being developed for PFX Alpha. I mean, we have AESA radars for MALE drones now.

exactly.

And on top of this, the RD33 was designed in the era of clunky, inefficient soviet avionics, with that in mind, its reasonably logical to assume that replacing clunky old avionics would probably leave some buffer.

Even with the KLJ-7A brochure, you can calculate the power consumption to be around 3-4kW, a number *1/3rd* that of the original mig 29's radar. A number probably comparable, or better than the power consumption of the KLJ-7A.

 

[guangdongt]

I think the focus of the debate should not be on technical standards, but on time. Technologies that seem insurmountable today may not be unsolvable in a decade or so. Pakistan currently lacks a clear timetable and project implementation plan, and the development of this fighter jet is shrouded in clouds and mist. 1. When will PFX officially begin development and when is the expected start date for the first prototype. 2. How much funding is Pakistan preparing to invest, what are the design goals, when will the supporting production facilities be completed, and most importantly, does Pakistan have a long-term leader to continuously promote it. I believe that PFX has never been a technical issue, but rather a matter of strategy and determination. It is a question of how to upgrade and utilize these production plants after JF17. Assuming that in a decade or so, Kaan can authorize Pakistan to assemble and produce, just like India's Su30mki, will PFX continue at that time? The answer lies in these decades.Because the technology and equipment required for PFX are not impossible to obtain, there is a big question mark on how much Pakistan needs to spend on these, and whether Pakistan will use PFX as a backup plan or fully promote it.At present, if I can see it, the introduction of j35 in the short term and the introduction of assembly and production of kaan in Türkiye in the long-term plan are in line with Pakistan's two legged policy. Similar to the F16 and JF17 of the past

 

[guangdongt]

通过印巴空战，JF17 Block3证明了其A2A价值，可以有效成为数据杀伤链的终端。此前，巴基斯坦也获得了阿塞拜疆的订单。阿塞拜疆将在jf17上扩充图尔基耶的武器包。但印巴空战表明，PAF未来将面临世界级的高强度空袭。如果PFX只是JF17 Block3的巴基斯坦化，似乎没必要改名。如果其设计结构发生重大变化，成为下一代飞机。在目前的情况下，有哪些可能性？初步设计，包括必要的风洞设备，国内都可以试验，但是人才呢？有没有一个稳定的团队，有没有能力整合巴基斯坦自始至终的努力？由于小时候对J10的兴趣。我被动地查阅了从1996年到2008年FC-1战斗机(JF17的中文名)几乎所有公开的研制资料，JF17后期的设计者很多都是当时CAC的年轻骨干成员。印象最深的是杨伟，他后来成为中国J20的总设计师，也是JF17的总指挥。通过JF17和J10的经历，他积累了足够的设计经验。当时JF17大大小小的采访几乎都是杨威在做。巴基斯坦从生产战斗机到设计战斗机已经有了一个巨大的飞跃，包括一个完整的团队 The establishment of all supporting companies in Pakistan requires significant conditions, even if spare parts are imported from China. If there are clear actions, there will be some dynamic messages. I am adopting a wait-and-see attitude. This is a matter of strategic determination, not a technical issue

ps:Yang Wei was a key figure in the later development of JF17. Prior to him, JF17 had gone through two chief designers. Yang Wei redesigned the air intake of JF17 and made changes to other designs. He was the key figure in turning JF17 from a blueprint into a fighter prototype. He represented the younger generation of CAC design team behind JF17 at that time. Most of these people have become the backbone of China Airlines today.Therefore, the challenge of the PFX project is definitely not as simple as assembling, which exceeds the imagination of many people