JF-17 PFX program

[Blueishere]

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That's a YF-23

 

[That_Guy]

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Lmao, did they really just copy past the YF-23 black widow?

I mean, it's a fantastic design, but funny as heck.

 

[That_Guy]

After AWC finish S-3
It's natural to go for CATS Warrior type of drones
GIDS had HALE drone in its Future Roadmap but they removed it.
Shahpar 4 may come with stealth design.

Shahpar-4 is almost guaranteed to be a stealth design, as there is really nowhere else to go with a non-stealth design after Shahpar-3.

We'll either see a design similar to the Kizilelma, or the GJ-11.

What I'm really interested in is what Pakistan plans for its loyal wingman future procurement.

 

[That_Guy]

Dear In my personal view, you consider the PFX a proper 5th Gen jet, while I don't see it that way. I believe its capabilities place it somewhere between the JF-17 and the J-35/Kaan, intended to replace the JF-17 in the future. A strict 5th Gen or 4.5th Gen definition cannot be entirely applied to it.





If I had to explain what PFX is, I would simplify things like this:

What it looks like to me is that PFX is actually not one but three blocks or iteration of the JF-17:

• JF-17 Block-4 (JF17P):A 4.5 generation jet, an indigenized JF-17 Block 3 with some improvements.
  • Further development of Block 3 with some systems improvements.
  • Increased indigenization/localization/Make in Pakistan components.
  • Integration of more weapon systems, both locally made and foreign-imported from friendly countries.
  • May include an upgrade program for Block 1 and 2.

• JF-17 Block-5 (JF17 Alpha):A 4.5+ generation jet, similar to the transition from Gripen C/D to Gripen E/F (But not proper medium weight).
  • Further development with a better engine (WS21) and some structural changes with slight enlargement, without significantly altering the overall design parameters.
  • Increased indigenization/localization/Make in Pakistan components.
  • Integration of more weapon systems, both locally made and foreign-imported from friendly countries.

• JF-17 Block-6 (JF17 PFX or PFX):A 4.5++ (or 5 minus) generation semi-stealth jet, similar to a lightweight, single-engine KFX Block-1.
  • Further development with some stealth design and features.
  • Likely to be a purely Pakistani fighter, not joint fighter, nor 100% locally made. (although with the assistance of China, Turkey, and other friendly countries).

Regarding Timelines consider around 4 year (+/- 1 year) for each block.


P.S.: Please note that this is just my understanding of what PFX is. I do not have any insider information.

Made in Pakistan.

Not Make in Pakistan.

Its Pakistan, not India, use proper English.

Honestly speaking, I don't think the thunder will get to Block 6, unless Pakistan is really in a dire need of semi-modern fighters.

After Block 5, PAF (to my understanding) may undertake a replacement project, at that point.

it will have enough expertise and industrial support to attempt to build a next generation fighter, assuming it succeeds in indigenizing the Thunder almost completely by then.

Who knows?

 

[MS Sandhu]

We'll either see a design similar to the Kizilelma, or the GJ-11.

GJ-11 is a flying wing design.Kizil-elma is too big.I don't think AWC is capable enough to develop such a highly LO UAV.
Mini - Kizil-elma type UAV with some sort of frontal stealth and vertical stabilizers for easier flight handling make sense to start.
Initially it may be purposed for air to air & air to ground surveillance only but later on an armed version can be developed.

 

[That_Guy]

GJ-11 is a flying wing design.Kizil-elma is too big.I don't think AWC is capable enough to develop such a highly LO UAV.
Mini - Kizil-elma type UAV with some sort of frontal stealth and vertical stabilizers for easier flight handling make sense to start.
Initially it may be purposed for air to air & air to ground surveillance only but later on an armed version can be developed.

Not yet, but by the time they're done with S-3, they should be at least doing a feasibility study on it. You gain capability by trying to study and build the damn thing, not by sitting around and saying it's impossible.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

I think the focus of the debate should not be on technical standards, but on time. Technologies that seem insurmountable today may not be unsolvable in a decade or so. Pakistan currently lacks a clear timetable and project implementation plan, and the development of this fighter jet is shrouded in clouds and mist. 1. When will PFX officially begin development and when is the expected start date for the first prototype. 2. How much funding is Pakistan preparing to invest, what are the design goals, when will the supporting production facilities be completed, and most importantly, does Pakistan have a long-term leader to continuously promote it. I believe that PFX has never been a technical issue, but rather a matter of strategy and determination. It is a question of how to upgrade and utilize these production plants after JF17. Assuming that in a decade or so, Kaan can authorize Pakistan to assemble and produce, just like India's Su30mki, will PFX continue at that time? The answer lies in these decades.Because the technology and equipment required for PFX are not impossible to obtain, there is a big question mark on how much Pakistan needs to spend on these, and whether Pakistan will use PFX as a backup plan or fully promote it.At present, if I can see it, the introduction of j35 in the short term and the introduction of assembly and production of kaan in Türkiye in the long-term plan are in line with Pakistan's two legged policy. Similar to the F16 and JF17 of the past

A more pertinent question is will this project survive even, after current CAS retirement as it is his brainchild and this project caused clear disruption in PAF's original trajectory of getting 200 Thunders. We only got 23 Block IIIs (visually confirmed number) or 30 at most. Ever since the announcement of PFX, things become less transparent. Why the Block III order was cut to 30 only when previously minimum 50/block approach was followed? Plus, like you said, there is no clarity with PFX timelines. Even specifications of this thing are mainly wish lists and heresy at best. May be PAF don't want to repeat embarrassment of Project Azm which had to shelved once the gap between desired output and current capabilities of PAC became known. I fear a similar fate for PFX.

 

[frontline360news]

Design from IDEAS 2024:

Geo TV: IDEAS 2024 Interview:

After the preparation certificate of the JF-17 Block III, Pakistan is now one step ahead in modernizing its air force. At the ongoing International Defense Exhibition in Karachi, the Pakistan Air Force has officially announced the development of the latest PF-X fighter jet, which stands for Pakistan Fighter-X. Detailed information is provided by Tariq Abul Hasan's report. The JF-17 is a source of pride for Pakistan, and it is now being exported to friendly countries along with the Pakistan Air Force. The Pakistan Air Force is now taking a step further by developing a new PF-X aircraft. Let's talk about this with Air Commodore Azhar, who is with us. This aircraft is a generation ahead of the original JF-17. It is a 4.5 plus generation aircraft with greater range and is difficult to detect by radar. The systems installed on this aircraft are also advanced. In all the systems installed above, most of the control is our own.

The electronic warfare and even the modern radar that we have, our own teams are developing it. We proudly say that this PFAX program is now linked with space programs around the world.
Our own, Mashallah, space program is progressing with respect to our satellites.
On the ground, our electronic warfare and the sensors of our radars, we, Alhamdulillah, are launching a few things that have capabilities that are found in very few countries in the world.
The passive radar, which can detect enemy aircraft without transmitting anything, is one of those capabilities.

Alhamdulillah, next year we will roll it out, PFX InshaAllah. I won't disclose the year's number yet, but it could be the number for this year; in 4 to 5 years, you will see PFX soaring, InshaAllah. Another special aspect of this preparation will be that JF 17, which was previously developed with China's assistance, was calibrated, but PFX will be completely made by Pakistan and the Pakistan Air Force with its own resources, and this will be a significant milestone for Pakistan Air Force.

SAMAA TV: IDEAS 2024 Interview:

For the first time, a model of a new, modern fighter jet has been presented. At this moment, our representative Qazi Hassan is present with the project director of the Pakistan Fighter Program PFX, Air Commodore Farooq bin Iqram. Let's go to the defense exhibition 2024, where this time, the Ideas exhibition has introduced a new thing from Pakistan Air Force, a new generation fighter jet PFX. What are its features and how long can it soar in the skies of Pakistan? We are heading towards the Pakistan Air Force stall to know more from Air Commander Farooq about a new aircraft that will be a 4.5 plus generation fighter, equipped with the latest avionics systems and a higher powered engine.

The performance of this will have a much better reach than our old version. For the assisting fleets we have, we have already started working on the necessary technologies. This has been named the Pakistan Fighter Program PFX, and the Pakistan Fighter Program would be the next pride of the Pakistan Air Force. Inshallah, the advanced version of JF Thunder, which will be produced in Pakistan itself, will soon rise in the Pakistani skies.

 

[guangdongt]

A more pertinent question is will this project survive even, after current CAS retirement as it is his brainchild and this project caused clear disruption in PAF's original trajectory of getting 200 Thunders. We only got 23 Block IIIs (visually confirmed number) or 30 at most. Ever since the announcement of PFX, things become less transparent. Why the Block III order was cut to 30 only when previously minimum 50/block approach was followed? Plus, like you said, there is no clarity with PFX timelines. Even specifications of this thing are mainly wish lists and heresy at best. May be PAF don't want to repeat embarrassment of Project Azm which had to shelved once the gap between desired output and current capabilities of PAC became known. I fear a similar fate for PFX.

No one knows who the developer of PFX is, and in the current tense international situation, I believe that any high-end weapon developed by Pakistan will be kept highly confidential

 

[frontline360news]

A more pertinent question is will this project survive even, after current CAS retirement as it is his brainchild and this project caused clear disruption in PAF's original trajectory of getting 200 Thunders. We only got 23 Block IIIs (visually confirmed number) or 30 at most. Ever since the announcement of PFX, things become less transparent. Why the Block III order was cut to 30 only when previously minimum 50/block approach was followed? Plus, like you said, there is no clarity with PFX timelines. Even specifications of this thing are mainly wish lists and heresy at best. May be PAF don't want to repeat embarrassment of Project Azm which had to shelved once the gap between desired output and current capabilities of PAC became known. I fear a similar fate for PFX.

There’s been a lot of uncertainty surrounding Pakistan’s AZM project, which was initially expected to include a fifth-generation fighter and advanced UAV development. However, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) appears to be shifting its focus, and details about the project PFX remain unclear. Some reports indicate that the PFX program is in progress, with a projected rollout in 2027, yet there’s still no finalized design or even a mockup to analyze.

One of the biggest questions is whether the PFX will take inspiration from Turkey’s Kaan fighter or if it will be a scaled-down version of the YF-23 or China’s J-20. With limited official information, speculation continues to grow, leaving defense analysts and aviation enthusiasts waiting for clearer details about Pakistan’s next-generation fighter. For now, the development process remains largely behind closed doors, adding to the intrigue surrounding this ambitious project.

 

[maxpane]

No.

just wild guess indonesia?

 

[Quwa]

Shahpar-4 is almost guaranteed to be a stealth design, as there is really nowhere else to go with a non-stealth design after Shahpar-3.

We'll either see a design similar to the Kizilelma, or the GJ-11.

What I'm really interested in is what Pakistan plans for its loyal wingman future procurement.

NESCOM has the foundations for it.

1. Build on current target drone tech to build a larger decoy drone for dual EW/ECM and loitering munition roles. Think of it as a multi-role cruise missile.

2. Develop a 2-3-ton loyal wingman UCAV using x2 NTJ-V1s (3.6 kN) or (if you really want to get ambitious within reason) a joint-venture engine with 15-18 kN thrust (with Turkey, Poland, Brazil, etc). Target a total payload of ~2 PL-15E-tier AAMs or 2~4 AZB-81LRs.

Between these two designs, you can generate enormous production scale: thousands of decoy drones/loitering munitions, and up to 1,000 loyal wingman UCAVs (for PAF as well as export needs). Just signal to Pakistani investors that NESCOM and PAC cannot take on all that work, and you'll see private manufacturers rise up.

(3) From there, you can shift to a 5-7+ ton fighter UCAV. This would (IMO) be the type of project that will replace the JF-17s in certain roles, like SOW-deployment.

Building on these, the culminating project could be that next-gen lightweight fighter.

One can envision a single platform for future LIFT, light manned fighter, and fighter UCAV all in one to replace the JF-17s as the workhorse fighter.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

That's the YF-23 Blackwidow!

A poor copy TBH.

I may not know the numbers but I do know there were non-Pakistani and non-Chinese from the Asian continent staying/visiting Kamra well into the development/in service of Block-2.

Roosi?

 

[FuturePAF]

Lmao, did they really just copy past the YF-23 black widow?

I mean, it's a fantastic design, but funny as heck.

Copy and add canards.

 

[SiliconBit (silicon0000)]

Made in Pakistan.

Not Make in Pakistan.

Its Pakistan, not India, use proper English.

Honestly speaking, I don't think the thunder will get to Block 6, unless Pakistan is really in a dire need of semi-modern fighters.

After Block 5, PAF (to my understanding) may undertake a replacement project, at that point.

it will have enough expertise and industrial support to attempt to build a next generation fighter, assuming it succeeds in indigenizing the Thunder almost completely by then.

Who knows?

Dear I'm not asserting that it will have three blocks (It can be 1 or 2 or 3 or any number of blocks). I'm simply trying to explain what PFX is in simple terms, and to facilitate that explanation, I've broken it down into three sets (blocks).