PAF F-16 | Discussions

[rafale]

Think it is safe to say we have moved on from the F-16. Incredible jet and one of the loves of my life!
For 20 years A/B version served us very well and scared India, for another 20 years C/D/MLU did the same.

V version is very good but both PAF and indeed IAF now in different game.

May 7th saw how a robust ecosystem could defeat almost anything thrown at it. 4.5th Gen jets, SAMs, EW, AEW, UAVs, Sats etc.

PAF is now firmly on a path to upgrade that ecosystem to the next level (J-35/FC-31, HQ-19 etc)

Unsure where/how F-16V fist into this. APG-83 and AIM-120D are great combo but we are now looking at a generation of aircraft and missiles beyond that, and all can be integrated into our kill chain, unlike the V

PL15 and its versions are already superior and battle proven to AIM120Ds. Buying a US fighter mean you are at the mercy and options of whatever latest is available and then getting that approved from USA. Pakistan has learned this the hard way. Buying F16s doesn't guarantee that you will always have access to latest updates, even if you have money for it. This is India's predicatment. Rafales are inferior to J10CEs and will remain so unless an upgrade package comes. While France might be forthcoming to offer that to India to massage their bruised ego in light of May7th events, USA might not be so friendly. So India doesn't really have any option of 5th Gen fighter.

F-16s are done and dusted. For PAF they are very good for strikes or mopping up IAF assets like Mig-21s/Jaguars/Mig29s. After their useful life is over, the F-16 chapter should close.

 

[rafale]

The PAF can try to procure them under “excess defense articles” terms, open to official allies, such as Pakistan. Price is usually a tenth compared to the price for a new unit; so probably for $5-8 million per aircraft.

I firmly believe no need to waste limited funds on F-16s. They have served their due share in PAF, inspired generations of Pilots and watchers, but they are the end of the line.

 

[MastanKhan]

PL15 and its versions are already superior and battle proven to AIM120Ds. Buying a US fighter mean you are at the mercy and options of whatever latest is available and then getting that approved from USA. Pakistan has learned this the hard way. Buying F16s doesn't guarantee that you will always have access to latest updates, even if you have money for it. This is India's predicatment. Rafales are inferior to J10CEs and will remain so unless an upgrade package comes. While France might be forthcoming to offer that to India to massage their bruised ego in light of May7th events, USA might not be so friendly. So India doesn't really have any option of 5th Gen fighter.

F-16s are done and dusted. For PAF they are very good for strikes or mopping up IAF assets like Mig-21s/Jaguars/Mig29s. After their useful life is over, the F-16 chapter should close.

Hi,

On the hands of the clock---the IAF has been caught at its lowest ebb---while Paf has been positioned at top position---. It is just a matter of timing that india has found itself entangled in a web created by time---and there is no escape from it for years to come---.

The Indians just got OUTGUNNED by the Paf---and that is what we call war---.

And you are right---even the US does not have anything in its arsenal that could out gun the PL15's right now---other than the counter measures---.

 

[rafale]

Hi,

On the hands of the clock---the IAF has been caught at its lowest ebb---while Paf has been positioned at top position---. It is just a matter of timing that india has found itself entangled in a web created by time---and there is no escape from it for years to come---.

The Indians just got OUTGUNNED by the Paf---and that is what we call war---.

And you are right---even the US does not have anything in its arsenal that could out gun the PL15's right now---other than the counter measures---.

While the USA will surely catch up, what will Indians do?

Above all, the fact that Indians braziningly decided to mount this strike in the name of Pahalgam drama, without assessing the intelligence, i mean they most likely though PL-15Es were the short range export version, so thats a complete intelligence failure there.

Then, they planned the attack staying behind the border only to get each of their top fighter types shot down within their own airspace. This shows that Indian intelligence was a complete failure. While PAF has the benefit of obtaining knowledge on M2Ks, SU30s and Rafales, Indians have no way to know the capability and ability of Chinese weapons, since only Pakistan is the operator.

Same with F-16s, as there are many operators and Indians can get some credible assessment on the platforms ability, so its better PAF doesn't waste its time on this outdated platform now. If need be for a medium strike aircraft, get the J-15/16s.

 

[FuturePAF]

If this cheaper alternative was adopted by Pakistan, Turkey can help them upgrade. Some of the Turkish F-16s were upgraded with MURAD AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar from ASELSAN. Also, GÖKTUĞ air-to-air missile series (Bozdoğan WVR & Gökdoğan BVR) can be integrated. Pakistan is working on local copy of same BVR missile.

Perhaps a podded version of the Murad Radar can be made; as a jamming pod as well as a RF targeting pod. Let’s hope the jets can properly upgraded, if it doesn’t cost so much, so the radars don’t have to be podded.

 

[FuturePAF]

I firmly believe no need to waste limited funds on F-16s. They have served their due share in PAF, inspired generations of Pilots and watchers, but they are the end of the line.

You are probably right; the juice probably isn’t worth the squeeze.

 

[MastanKhan]

While the USA will surely catch up, what will Indians do?

Above all, the fact that Indians braziningly decided to mount this strike in the name of Pahalgam drama, without assessing the intelligence, i mean they most likely though PL-15Es were the short range export version, so thats a complete intelligence failure there.

Then, they planned the attack staying behind the border only to get each of their top fighter types shot down within their own airspace. This shows that Indian intelligence was a complete failure. While PAF has the benefit of obtaining knowledge on M2Ks, SU30s and Rafales, Indians have no way to know the capability and ability of Chinese weapons, since only Pakistan is the operator.

Same with F-16s, as there are many operators and Indians can get some credible assessment on the platforms ability, so its better PAF doesn't waste its time on this outdated platform now. If need be for a medium strike aircraft, get the J-15/16s.

Hi,

Thanks to Deino---the indians / israelis never believed that we had the PL15's---any version at all---.

That is what the position of their strike force showed---.

Other than me---I doubt if anyone else claimed that we had the PL15 in stock since 2021 when we got the aircraft---. Kudos to those who agreed and stood by me---.

And curse and condemnation to those who tried to make fun of my job, my age, my sanity---.

(That blow up of the Rafales was the sweetest revenge than any man could ask for---).

And we trained and trained and trained till the day we needed to use it and we used it to perfection---.

Son---the clock hands have been extremely cruel to IAF---they got caught sleeping at the helm and the time went by---.

They were busy in their rhetoric of putting pakistan down verbally---and Allah put the blinds on their eyes and on their brains---and neither they could see clearly---nor they could think right---till the moment their assets got obliterated in their own skies and they had no clue what transpired---and they found out that they had been out smarted and there was no place for them to run---.

Allah willing---they may not catch us for awhile---.

 

[TAC]

Agree and disagree slightly here. With trump in power things have changed and we saw after 7th May, US support to India has it's limits. Also I do not think US now considers India a serious bulwark against China.

Trump has stated he wants to trade more with Pakistan too, the single biggest purhcases from the US would be weapons.

Agreed and Trump only cares about money and American jobs. However while it’s sensible to stay engaged with them as much to keep our fleet of F-16s viable as anything else, maybe we should be bit careful as next US Govt may not be so amenable.

 

[Toxic]

Agreed and Trump only cares about money and American jobs. However while it’s sensible to stay engaged with them as much to keep our fleet of F-16s viable as anything else, maybe we should be bit careful as next US Govt may not be so amenable.

IMO it's not worth it to go for the V when we can purchase more J-35s

 

[MastanKhan]

IMO it's not worth it to go for the V when we can purchase more J-35s

Hi,

It is not worth it to even go for the V---our J10CE's with PL15 / Aesa radar are far superior in our environment

 

[airhead]

I am sorry to say to all your f16 fans that finally f16s have taken a back seat to j10s after 4 decades . I am hoping that the air chief will fly j10 and not f16 in republic day fly past

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

It is not worth it to even go for the V---our J10CE's with PL15 / Aesa radar are far superior in our environment

The Western military equipment usually is tweaked down, so that they don't become a threat to them. The Turkish navy used to purchase heavy torpedoes from Germany. But, they found it's top speed is less than that of the Western naval platforms! Now that Turkey is producing her own heavy torpedoes the speed problem has got solved....

 

[Reichmarshal]

Hi,

On the hands of the clock---the IAF has been caught at its lowest ebb---while Paf has been positioned at top position---. It is just a matter of timing that india has found itself entangled in a web created by time---and there is no escape from it for years to come---.

The Indians just got OUTGUNNED by the Paf---and that is what we call war---.

And you are right---even the US does not have anything in its arsenal that could out gun the PL15's right now---other than the counter measures---.

Sir, Jee, PAF was saying it again and again that with the induction of the J10C, PAF retains the option of first shot, first kill over the IAF.
However, with the induction of Rafale into the IAF, no one was willing to take the PAF claim seriously. Guess what, May 7th was a rude awakening for the nay-sayers and came to bite them where the sun dont shine.

 

[Fatman17]

On the issue of an upgrade of the F-16 that would be worth it, in the context of the ABC system of the PAF, the Turks have been making progress on their EDPOD project. If the PAF shows interest in this project and asks to join it’s continued development, for use as a modern jammer (like the American next Gen jammer) as well as possibly a targeting pod, could this be a way to circumvent an upgrade of the main radar, for the A2G roles of EW/SEAD, and allow the PAF to use not only Turkish munitions but Pakistani made munitions on the F-16?

An article from 2014 said the pod per aircraft cost $2 million, but with requirement upgrades and inflation, the costs would surely be higher.

If we can get a modern upgrade to fit the A2G in the way I described above, procuring used F-16s and giving them this modest upgrade would make it a lot easier to see an expanded F-16 fleet replace the Mirages, perhaps doubling the F-16 squadrons from 4 to 8?

Turkish EW pod for F-16s completes developmental testing

Türkiye has showcased a new electronic warfare (EW) pod for its Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft, announcing on 11 April that the Edpod had completed...

www.janes.com

A Turkish Air Force F-16 Block 40 successfully tests the new EDPOD tactical electronic support pod

Turkey’s defense research complex, in partnership with local companies, continues to develop and enhance capabilities to equip the Armed Forces’ combat

www.zona-militar.com

P.S. The PAF has a good relationship with SAAB, especially after how the Erieye was used. Now maybe a good time to try to procure one squadron worth of Arexis pods and associated equipment and support for our F-16s.

So our planes can do what the Gripens in full EW mode can do.

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Turkey has a name for their version of the F-16 upgrade which PAF might pursue to upgrade it's older models.

 

[MirageV3ff]

Cheaper replacements for the Mirages, especially IF we can use them, primarily for the A2G role and give them a SLEP to get 4000 more hours out of the air frames.

200 hours a year, these birds could soldier on for 15-20 more years.

A more capable air frame than the mirages, which we badly need to replace. We have the infrastructure in place to support them.

Can see that acquisition taking place but only if upgrades are involved. Specifically I think PAF would look to get Turkish Ozgur upgrades for its vipers.

With the future prospect of KAAN joining the fleet, PAF would atleast have experience with Turkish avionics and systems in a jet they're already familiar with