PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

[Psyko70]

this is all good at tactical level. not at a strategic one.

Its an example.

 

[Psyko70]

the issue lies in the doctrine. or the lack of one.

paksitan thinks that any war with india will last only 15 days and then there will be a ceasefire and back to status quo. there is nothing in that doctrine about winning the war. its just about surviving long enough for the world powers to jump in.

this is a defeatist mentality right from the beginning in the face of an enemy that may potentially want to wipe you out, especially after the trainings and guidance they receive from israelis.

this thinking, thus, affects all war plans and appetite for escalation. our forces are not winners. they just seek to maintain the status quo. there is no grand strategy. there is no long term plan.

The defeatist mentality is now gone. Pakistan AD needs improvement but India is lagging behind in Airforce strategy which is at greater loss and could also mean in air support role if they dont have air superiority how can they support there ground forces. Everyone is learning.

 

[S.Y.A]

The defeatist mentality is now gone.

nope. it is still there. the doctrine hasnt changed. it has may have just evolved to include enough AD to survive. btw, are we getting any long-range heavy strike plane? that can bomb the crap out of indian infra and airfields?

talk to army guys. talk to air-force guys. all will claim that they have won. when, in reality, the response was delayed due to indecisiveness. and we have got nothing to show for it. there is no killer instinct. just a few words in their dictionary: restraint, proportional response and escalation ladder.

and all of them will still claim that surviving for 15 days is the name of game.

ask them about winning the war, instead. they will start beating about the bush. there is no plan to win it.

 

[Bratva]

nope. it is still there. the doctrine hasnt changed. it has may have just evolved to include enough AD to survive.

talk to army guys. talk to air-force guys. all will claim that they have won. when, in reality, the response was delayed due to indecisiveness. and we have got nothing to show for it. there is no killer instinct. just a few words in their dictionary: restraint, proportional response and escalation ladder.

and all of them will still claim that surviving for 15 days is the name of game.

ask them about winning the war, instead. they will start beating about the bush. there is no plan to win it.

India reduced the effectiveness of our AD with saturation attacks/loitering munitions. Even Malir cantt was attacked.

 

[rafale]

Hello,

Iron dome didn't fail it was last level of defense in layered defenses (Arrow, Thaad, David sling. I think Israeli's did well and it also gives lesson that number of missile stockpiles is the issue. Pakistan cannot stock as much missiles as Israeli's because of funding via uncle SAM.

I think Underground bases is the solution alone with Umbrella layered defenses. Even AA guns as the last resort.

China has plenty of options, you don't need HQ9/16 for every aerial threat..........and uncle Sam's everything defense related is going to be always 3-4x times more expensive as what the Chinese can produce.

So my take from all this episode is simple, seek China's help in getting area and point defense systems which have cheaper missiles so you can keep a lot more of them or fire a lot more of them. More like dedicated assets for critical airbase defense only.

Brahmos or Scalp or whatever hitting a shelter with your J10 or J35 or AWACs in it is a lot worse than say some civilian infrastructure hits..........in the grander scheme of things that is.

 

[Psyko70]

nope. it is still there. the doctrine hasnt changed. it has may have just evolved to include enough AD to survive. btw, are we getting any long-range heavy strike plane? that can bomb the crap out of indian infra and airfields?

talk to army guys. talk to air-force guys. all will claim that they have won. when, in reality, the response was delayed due to indecisiveness. and we have got nothing to show for it. there is no killer instinct. just a few words in their dictionary: restraint, proportional response and escalation ladder.

and all of them will still claim that surviving for 15 days is the name of game.

ask them about winning the war, instead. they will start beating about the bush. there is no plan to win it.

This was not even a proper war let alone win or loss debate. Agree with you. But Pakistan is realizing offensive capability as well as Proper AD is required.

 

[MirageV3ff]

Not exactly when it comes to Bholari.
It was actually luck and Brahmos extremely poor turning radius that saved the asset damage.

Same goes for Nur Khan.

Saturation has its impacts but overall the amount of effort they put in with rather decent textbook attack profiles should have gotten them more returns.

Unfortunately, they have proof - Pakistanis have each other’s congratulations at best for now.

I honestly wouldn't hold my breath when it comes to Bohlari. There was some real gross negligence done over there by our guys.

And I agree with @MastanKhan we should have taken down more aircraft on the 7th. We held back and that was to our detriment.

Regardless we need to seriously beef up our AD especially around airbases. Replace SPADA-2000s as point defence systems with other systems like Turkish made SIPERS or go for Chinese systems.

We also need a counter to UCAS to especially mobile systems. Mil should look into getting VAMPRE (Vehicle-Agnostic Modular Palletized ISR Rocket Equipment). It's a cost effective system and can be retrofitted on a Hilux

 

[Rational Philosopher]

nope. it is still there. the doctrine hasnt changed. it has may have just evolved to include enough AD to survive. btw, are we getting any long-range heavy strike plane? that can bomb the crap out of indian infra and airfields?

talk to army guys. talk to air-force guys. all will claim that they have won. when, in reality, the response was delayed due to indecisiveness. and we have got nothing to show for it. there is no killer instinct. just a few words in their dictionary: restraint, proportional response and escalation ladder.

and all of them will still claim that surviving for 15 days is the name of game.

ask them about winning the war, instead. they will start beating about the bush. there is no plan to win it.

Most of that mentality is due to the huge economic difference and strategic land mass difference between both countries. Makes a huge impact in successful war planning, paints a bleak picture that's naturally defensive.

 

[rafale]

India reduced the effectiveness of our AD with saturation attacks/loitering munitions. Even Malir cantt was attacked.

View attachment 131556

this is wrongly quoted and not much detailed, Bholari was not loitering munition......Malir was....and it posed little threat as compared to Bholari and your valuable assets there.

Two very different dimensional attacks..........and next war will see saturation attacks and loitering munitions.............and with Indians already with a bloodied face this time, they will go all in on day one.

Losing Rafale and Su30mki is too much for them, too much PTSD to cope........

 

[S.Y.A]

India reduced the effectiveness of our AD with saturation attacks/loitering munitions. Even Malir cantt was attacked.

View attachment 131556

there isnt much cover down south. it isnt as important in the military's decision-makers' minds.

but thats not the point. the point is why did we not attack the bases from which strike aircraft were launched? why did we allow the indians to send drones after drones for 2 days when we had forced their air-force to retreat?

 

[Psyko70]

India reduced the effectiveness of our AD with saturation attacks/loitering munitions. Even Malir cantt was attacked.

View attachment 131556

Alan warnes says considerable damage then tells the damage of slight to c130, a room, some fuel trucks. That is nothing when two military fight. Also in first para it says HQ9BE short range systems. I think alan warnes needs to proof read the magazine. The magazines says targeted in 2nd para not destroyed.

 

[S.Y.A]

Most of that mentality is due to the huge economic difference and strategic land mass difference between both countries. Makes a huge impact in successful war planning, paints a bleak picture that's naturally defensive.

my guy, we had the opportunity in 2019, and again in may 2025. their comms were jammed, their jets were grounded. why did we not pound them?

and the worst thing that can happen is PAF boasting to the world about how we jammed their stuff on TV. i mean, come on.

also, what is our military strategy? they keep opening up fronts and we keep responding. for 15 days. that is it.

off topic: who is the one responsible for mismanagement of our economy?

 

[rafale]

nope. it is still there. the doctrine hasnt changed. it has may have just evolved to include enough AD to survive. btw, are we getting any long-range heavy strike plane? that can bomb the crap out of indian infra and airfields?

talk to army guys. talk to air-force guys. all will claim that they have won. when, in reality, the response was delayed due to indecisiveness. and we have got nothing to show for it. there is no killer instinct. just a few words in their dictionary: restraint, proportional response and escalation ladder.

and all of them will still claim that surviving for 15 days is the name of game.

ask them about winning the war, instead. they will start beating about the bush. there is no plan to win it.

Well, you work with realities sometime...which is not as simple as 2+2.....

Sure, PAF should have gone on absolute destruction of IAF when they had the chance, but the restraint you mention and Pakistani leaders have to show.....stems from the fact that you are on IMF support......ADB support....World Bank funding for all your financing needs.....

You see, a war where Indian economy starts crashing means Indian oil consumption and LNG imports will fall....means your own muslim bastard GCC arab brothers will call you to stop the war before even USA will.....they care about the dollars that their Oil/Gas exports to India bring.....given how low oil prices have been recently....

and that is why you can never damage India enough where its economy starts crashing......they are bigger and have bigger impact on regional economies than you do....

It very well reminds me of the quote from a famous, early 1990s PTV drama serial....Dhuwan.......which was shot with the Afghan/soviet war and its effects on Pakistan in the background...

where the senior guys tells the newly minted ASP......
"....bahaut sey kaam aesay hotay hain jo mulk ke mufaad mei hotey hain....magar hakumat majmoor hoti hai....."

 

[rafale]

my guy, we had the opportunity in 2019, and again in may 2025. their comms were jammed, their jets were grounded. why did we not pound them?

and the worst thing that can happen is PAF boasting to the world about how we jammed their stuff on TV. i mean, come on.

also, what is our military strategy? they keep opening up fronts and we keep responding. for 15 days. that is it.

off topic: who is the one responsible for mismanagement of our economy?

the summary of this 4 day war is......both sides have extremely lethal weapons, unlike ever fielded before....and it will always be quick and deadly

Israel Iran went on because Iran literally had nothing to respond with other than some useless BM salvos.....while Israel kept pounding them for fun......Israel even pounded targets of little to no significant value....do you know why? Because why not? Why not use your new targeting techniques and weapons on an enemy just for practice and fun? Because you can....

Pakistan India clash isn't like that and neither like 1971/65

It will be deadly very very quickly........

 

[HRK]

Southern region airdefense had mediocre performance. Bholari and Malir cantt both got hits from Brahmos/SCALPS.

My assumption, majority of AD were Punjab/Kashmir facing. But that didnt stop Punjab and Kashmir military assets from getting hits.

No hit in Malir cant, it was targeted with Drones which were mostly neutralize by the soft kill only few SAM missiles were used to intercept the Drones near Karachi airport.

To some extent Bholari same soft kill and hard kill technique were used we have seen at least video of a least one intercepted Brahmos missile in Sindh