Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions

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Fatman17 said:
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Even if SPECTRA was not updated with the J10C/PL15 combo, and it probably wasn't because no western aircraft has gone up against it before, the MAWS should have detected the incoming PL15s from their IR signature, clearly this also seems to have been ineffective.
 
Corax said:
Even if SPECTRA was not updated with the J10C/PL15 combo, and it probably wasn't because no western aircraft has gone up against it before, the MAWS should have detected the incoming PL15s from their IR signature, clearly this also seems to have been ineffective.
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So this means we have advanced Cyber and EW capabilities paired with AI. The sheer carnage that ensued was brutal indians didn't wja hit 'em, their Radars, AD couldn't help them.
I am just trying to make out what happened to Indian Air picture, how the fk they couldn't see 40 PAF planes and AWACS with their long range radars.
This remains one big puzzle
 
falcon34 said:
So this means we have advanced Cyber and EW capabilities paired with AI. The sheer carnage that ensued was brutal indians didn't wja hit 'em, their Radars, AD couldn't help them.
I am just trying to make out what happened to Indian Air picture, how the fk they couldn't see 40 PAF planes and AWACS with their long range radars.
This remains one big puzzle
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They could see the PAF assets, they just didn't know their aircraft were being targeted and engaged with PL15s, because the J10s never locked them with their own radars, all guidance was done using datalink and data from AWACs and other sensors. The SPECTRA MAWS probably didn't have enough time to detect the PL15, or if the PL15 had already spent its motor and was coasting, there wouldn't be a bright IR signature. Another possibility is that the MAWS were not cued to detect incoming threats, because the Rafale's RWR would not have detected any emissions from lock on by J10 and with the PL15 going pitbull around 9 sec from impact, the RWR didn't have enough time to detect, process, and then slue the MAWS towards incoming missile. Time is of the essence in ACM/BVR, a split second can mean the difference between death.
 
Corax said:
They could see the PAF assets, they just didn't know their aircraft were being targeted and engaged with PL15s, because the J10s never locked them with their own radars, all guidance was done using datalink and data from AWACs and other sensors. The SPECTRA MAWS probably didn't have enough time to detect the PL15, or if the PL15 had already spent its motor and was coasting, there wouldn't be a bright IR signature. Another possibility is that the MAWS were not cued to detect incoming threats, because the Rafale's RWR would not have detected any emissions from lock on by J10 and with the PL15 going pitbull around 9 sec from impact, the RWR didn't have enough time to detect, process, and then slue the MAWS towards incoming missile. Time is of the essence in ACM/BVR, a split second can mean the difference between death.
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I do wonder if the pilots were suffering from workload 'overload', ie a human factor. It is known that their tactical links, and secure voice comms were being jammed, so their situation awareness was compromised. Did the jamming effect their systems so much that the pilots were having to manage a lot of "false alerts" from their sensors that came as a result of the jamming, and they simply didn't have the human capacity to filter through all the issues, verify their sensors and to respond quickly enough to all their jets were telling them?

A cockpit full of virtually everything flashing red lights, buzzers going off everywhere, no tactical situation and no brain bandwidth to cope with it all ?
 
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Ali_Baba said:
I do wonder if the pilots were suffering from workload 'overload', ie a human factor. It is known that their tactical links, and secure voice comms were being jammed, so their situation awareness was compromised. Did the jamming effect their systems so much that the pilots were having to manage a lot of "false alerts" from their sensors that came as a result of the jamming, and they simply didn't have the human capacity to filter through all the issues, verify their sensors and to respond quickly enough to all their jets were telling them?
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Could well be the case. Both 2019 and 2025 show that the PAF have invested significantly in jamming, C4I, space based assets, and datalink networking. They were hinting at this before 2019, and they've revealed a lot of capability since then. For the PAF, the upcoming challenges will be how to maintain its qualitative edge, and respond to the IAF's own response to the PAF. As some credible commentators have mentioned, the IAF is over a decade behind the PAF in terms of capability, and they'll be trying their hardest to catch-up.
 
Ali_Baba said:
I do wonder if the pilots were suffering from workload 'overload', ie a human factor. It is known that their tactical links, and secure voice comms were being jammed, so their situation awareness was compromised. Did the jamming effect their systems so much that the pilots were having to manage a lot of "false alerts" from their sensors that came as a result of the jamming, and they simply didn't have the human capacity to filter through all the issues, verify their sensors and to respond quickly enough to all their jets were telling them?

A cockpit full of virtually everything flashing red lights, buzzers going off everywhere, no tactical situation and no bandwidth to cope with it all ?
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Good point, but at Red Flag and Anatolian Eagle this sort of stuff is thrown in during training, Blue pilots are deliberately made "blind" and Red Air has the advantage.

If IAF went in there with pilots expecting everything to go hunky dory, more the fool them....
 
Corax said:
Could well be the case. Both 2019 and 2025 show that the PAF have invested significantly in jamming, C4I, space based assets, and datalink networking. They were hinting at this before 2019, and they've revealed a lot of capability since then. For the PAF, the upcoming challenges will be how to maintain its qualitative edge, and respond to the IAF's own response to the PAF. As some credible commentators have mentioned, the IAF is over a decade behind the PAF in terms of capability, and they'll be trying their hardest to catch-up.
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This is why J-35 is important, not just the platform in terms of it's physical abilities but also if you think our net centric capabilities are good now, a fully networked stealth fighter with passive sensors and high powered data link will be, as our friends across the border like to say, a game changer
 
Corax said:
Could well be the case. Both 2019 and 2025 show that the PAF have invested significantly in jamming, C4I, space based assets, and datalink networking. They were hinting at this before 2019, and they've revealed a lot of capability since then. For the PAF, the upcoming challenges will be how to maintain its qualitative edge, and respond to the IAF's own response to the PAF. As some credible commentators have mentioned, the IAF is over a decade behind the PAF in terms of capability, and they'll be trying their hardest to catch-up.
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Why is why the incessant daily celebrations non-stop are getting boring in here, no one is interested in the next war, which will be different. Indians will have learnt new things, Pakistan will have to adapt too.

Deterrence can only be through offence and we in all honesty didn't hit enough targets on the ground
 
Rationalist said:
Why is why the incessant daily celebrations non-stop are getting boring in here, no one is interested in the next war, which will be different. Indians will have learnt new things, Pakistan will have to adapt too.

Deterrence can only be through offence and we in all honesty didn't hit enough targets on the ground
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The offensive element lacked conviction and punch, but that was perhaps due to the reticence of the army, rather than the PAF. Still, at least he got the chance to promote himself to field marshal.
 
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