JF-17 PFX program

[Michael]

I don't think you even understood my post. Let's cover from a Science / Technology to Operational effectiveness for our topic.

What's the difference in a GaN (Gallium Nitride, Gen-2) and a Silicon Carbide (SiC, Gen-3) chip? The later (SiC) can process 3 times the information in one circuit, its latest Radar tech, generation-3. I can write a world research article here, but I'll refrain from showing off like you guys. Since the topic is limited to Radar tech, in theory, a Radar when using SiC chips vs. Gallium Nitride, can have 3 times the range. That's your J-20 and J-35. While J-10C uses Gallium Nitride or Gen-2.

Now let's do a comparison. An F-35, can LITERALLY identify a ballistic missile's after burning from 1000+ Kilometers away and they use optimized Gallium Nitride (GaN) in its Radar tech and sensors. So the J-20 and J-35, should have at least 1 time more range than the F-35 (ideally 3 times per science, but we give it that new development optimizes overtime). Chinese don't spend hundreds of millions in R&D to waste when Gallium Nitride was doing what they needed done.

They needed faster processing so R&D on Silicon Carbide is similar to how China's done significant R&D on Thorium and wants it to produce energy for almost all of its energy needs in defense. This is all next generation stuff. You are dead if you technologically don't advance. China is getting on top of innovation to beat the West.

One point you made about the database, yes, threat databases, IFF, etc, are much larger for the West than they are for Chinese systems. Why? Because the West has been building better weapons since WWII using Radar and other technologies so that knowledge carriers over.
But its useless, why? Because older platforms retire.

The Chinese systems cover all major Western systems since Chinese EW and Pakistani EW platforms (they share data) have been active around South China sea, and Pakistan on the Indian side. Between China and Pakistan, capturing electronic data from Japan, South Korea, US Navy in SCS, British & EU navy ships in SCS, Taiwan and India, you cover essentially all major weapon systems from around the world.

Lastly, I've seen people here making comments towards Pakistan they come almost insulting with respect to weapon pricing, economy and all. Let's clear something up, Chinese leaders know how big of a necessity Pakistan is for them. What they say in private is A LOT different than some Chinese members views here.

Pakistan isn't China, not that big, don't have 1.4 billion people and a relevant economy. But for China's case, we provide a lifeline to China. China's entire sea lines can be shut down by QUAD in less than a few hours in a war. Indian Nicobar and Andaman islands can close off the Malaca strait in no time, in case of a war. Well, how do you by pass all that and resume supply of fuel and trade to China? Through Gawader port and CPEC infrastructure in Pakistan. So Pak-China relationship is truly an iron brother relationship, joined to the hip. It should be taken as such.

Pakistan will see significant increases in its defense industry from 2028 onwards, especially, in indigenization and KAAN will be built here in Pakistan, may be under PFX. Pakistani version of the 5th gen platform will have Turkish and Chinese weapons integrated. Many Turkish weapons will be built here also, including BVR missiles along with KAAN.

I hope this long detail was educational and now we can all understand where Pakistan is headed. Proof will be in the seeing after 2028. Thanks!

@MastanKhan saw your post above. Agreed on both issues

From your reply, you really don't know the problem between GaN and SiC. So, we can end this paragraph.
At the same time, you are completely imaginative about the relationship between China and Pakistan.
So. End of the conversation!

 

[Deino]

Dear General Deino - I've seen your posts for like 20 years now and appreciate majority of your work (note: majority, not all). Over the history, many things you've stated turned out to be wrong because you yourself analyze, don't have "ins". That's ok though.

You didn't know Galium Nitride tech was in J-10's radar tech, and J-20 and J-35 use Silicon Carbibe. So J-10C's radar was a WHOLE generation ahead of Rafale because Rafale's AESA still uses gen-1, Galium Arsenide (GaAs), which is why, after May's embarrassment, India now wants its own Uttam (GaN based), in Rafale M's. The F-35 and F-22 are gen-2, and use Gallium Nitride. This is a recent mention I did to one of the threads @MastanKhan debated with you. This is recent example so I'll just stick to that.

I've not mentioned J-16 in PAF's colors in my life. In fact, in one of the threads where you were trying to butcher someone who talked about may be J-20 in Pakistan, I told you the design flaws of the J-20 with relations to PAF's requirements and that "it won't be effective, even if offered".

The information I provide, I take pride in. From LM's F-35 to PAC's JF-17, you can try to "mock" the information but can't discredit it. Now coming to this post here, in PFX's case, wait until 2028-2030 and mark my post, day and time. Till then, cheers!

Just call me Deino or if you want by my true name Andres!

Well, what should I say agaon? I hope you are correct and you surely misread my post a bit - sorry for not being clear enough - it was surely not you who claimed this, but all these staements and claims are made by various members here.

However, a true indigenous - even more so bigger like some claim - PFX is impossible until 2028! Never ... it's as unlikely or impossible like the TFX being in serial production with their own indigenous engine.

Don't get me wrong, I admire all your passion and enthusiasm, but my job as an analyst is to be realistic. If some like one mentioned last week, once to spin dreams and what-if scenarios, then it's fine, but then this should be made clear and not posted in a solid manner as if its a fact! That surely includes I am wrong, probably more than I like but not that often as some claim.

And therefore concerning your mentions: I never said or questioned that "Galium Nitride tech was in J-10's radar tech, and J-20 and J-35 use Silicon Carbibe." I think in no post I said anything to this at all ... so how could I have been wrong?

I indeed asked a question for a source on the J-20's radar at the SDF, but this never touched the J-10! Otherwise, please go ahead with what I made wrong and educate me ... I'm always eager to learn, but don't expect me to believe anything - like your claims regarding the PFX - without a solid explanation or even proof. A "thrust me brother, I know it" is not enough and in fact I only accept and believe such posts from very few members!

Best,
Andreas

 

[Deino]

...

@MastanKhan saw your post above. Agreed on both issues

Can we please leave out that old man from any such discussion? It only ruins anyone's reputation when he agrees and he is being quoted!.

Regarding the latest nonsense he claimed - aka Pakistan will get a F/A-18-style J-35 since this is modern only since he is too stupid to identify a J-10C - tells all about his understanding in this regard!

 

[Rational Philosopher]

If JFT is build around F-16XL wings it will be new aircraft and may fall in Medium weight category that is why upgraded J-10 engine is possiblity for that.

To put it simply, your idea of how aircraft development works is a little immature.

The 'changes' you're suggesting are so radically different that it becomes a completely new aircraft, it's no longer the JFT.

One you change the engine, the entire fuselage structure has to be re-designed, and everything else too.

It's not economically or logically feasible to invest huge amounts of funds to effectively create another aircraft in the same class as J-10, when you could just buy the J-10 instead. That would be a waste of funds.

The 'PFX' is just going to be an indigenization project with greater focus on subsystems and local manufacturing. If and when a 5th generation program is initiated, then a new fresh design will be decided upon.

 

[RajaBaja]

From your reply, you really don't know the problem between GaN and SiC. So, we can end this paragraph.
At the same time, you are completely imaginative about the relationship between China and Pakistan.
So. End of the conversation!

No, let's NOT end it. It JUST means you don't have the expertise to carry on with the discussion or the educational background. Give me facts on "issues" please.

Lastly, take a look at this map. It's called a Two Hooks and a Fish strategy that's being adapted by India / QUAD. I think the map explains my point very well

 

[Fatman17]

Michael is here! You and I had a discussion on a couple of issues before. You seem to have NO background in those and there's no real answers there.

Instead of writing plain English to some how "make a point". Write FACTS. This isn't a Bubba tea house. We are debating on facts. We are also NOT friends from Szechuan.

So write facts about what issues you might have. People come here for facts, not personal opinions. Thanks

Be careful with your words

 

[RajaBaja]

Be careful with your words

Care to tell me what was wrong with my words? I can definitely fix it.

 

[RajaBaja]

Just call me Deino or if you want by my true name Andres!

Well, what should I say agaon? I hope you are correct and you surely misread my post a bit - sorry for not being clear enough - it was surely not you who claimed this, but all these staements and claims are made by various members here.

However, a true indigenous - even more so bigger like some claim - PFX is impossible until 2028! Never ... it's as unlikely or impossible like the TFX being in serial production with their own indigenous engine.

Don't get me wrong, I admire all your passion and enthusiasm, but my job as an analyst is to be realistic. If some like one mentioned last week, once to spin dreams and what-if scenarios, then it's fine, but then this should be made clear and not posted in a solid manner as if its a fact! That surely includes I am wrong, probably more than I like but not that often as some claim.

And therefore concerning your mentions: I never said or questioned that "Galium Nitride tech was in J-10's radar tech, and J-20 and J-35 use Silicon Carbibe." I think in no post I said anything to this at all ... so how could I have been wrong?

I indeed asked a question for a source on the J-20's radar at the SDF, but this never touched the J-10! Otherwise, please go ahead with what I made wrong and educate me ... I'm always eager to learn, but don't expect me to believe anything - like your claims regarding the PFX - without a solid explanation or even proof. A "thrust me brother, I know it" is not enough and in fact I only accept and believe such posts from very few members!

Best,
Andreas

Mr. Rupprecht - I know you well . I hope I have the correct spellings of your last name. Like I was saying, I've followed your comments for 20 years on different platforms, so there is respect there.

Rest of your post, I agree. We have people who would make things up due to fancy rumor ideas. But not here. I only write something when I have subject matter expertise. Unless, its all rumors. I myself have been involved at global level way up and above, but that's past life. Take Care.

 

[Windjammer]

Pakistani JF-17 fighter jet makes debut at UK military airshow​

@Windjammer

Anyone planning on goinggoing

Dear, after enjoying 4 months in Pakistan, this weekend is my last chance to submit before another Red Flag from HMRC.
Was privileged to see the flypast from the top of an Islamabad tower. Will sadly miss the opportunity

 

[MastanKhan]

OK. Let me talk about some obvious problems.

In the field of radar technology, the chip technology of T/R modules is not everything. It is just a part of radar technology.
China has made use of its strong production capacity to make the high-end technology of GaN chips extremely cheap. The daily life of ordinary Chinese people is full of various electronic products using GaN chip technology. This has also driven our military GaN AESA industry. GaN AESA can be seen everywhere in the field of China's military industry.
However, this is not all of radar technology. It also includes radar algorithms, data processing and computing capabilities, database storage capabilities, etc. The United States still has a very large advantage in these areas. Their various reconnaissance equipment is active all over the world all year round, collecting radar signal characteristics of various weapons and equipment. China does not have such a rich database. France's database is richer than China's database.
It is not a correct description to think that GaAs AESA must be backward just by the difference between GaN AESA and GaAs.

The next generation technology after GaN AESA is GaO AESA. SiC is a chip substrate technology, and it is not the same material as GaAs, GaN, and GaO.

The radar of the J-20 series fighter has undergone several major changes. But "J-20 and J-35 use Silicon Carbide" is a completely wrong statement. This statement originally came from an article in SCMP. As we all know, the accuracy of SCMP's news is very low.

Hi,

The first information that comes out or gets 'leaked out' is mostly the truth that somehow got slipped thru the crack---and once the ramifications are realized---the cover up starts---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

An excellent news by AMRAAD on youtube---and I don't know how I missed it.

It is about the CM400 w / anti radiation seeker head to be used against SA batteries---used against the S-400 battery in india.

Such a massive development---having a 290 km range anti radiation is a monstrous feat---.

Does the US---israel---UK---france have this range anti radiation missile---????

Watch from 2:35

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So---this version will be called CM400AR

 

[Scorpio]

Can we please stop this AI-nonsense?
It has no relevance to the true PFX and is anyway totally unrealistic, since - alone the proposed use of a WS-10 - would result in a de facto new aircraft and no longer a JF-17 variant.

Please start a new thread but here it makes no Sense at all.

Totally make sense , PFX is a concept that AI ... Predict

F16Xl is based in US they are fare ahead for world in jet development and Pakistan is just beginning enter in field

 

[Scorpio]

As military fans, it is our pleasure to moderately analyze and imagine the future development of weapons and equipment.
However, if your analysis and imagination are completely out of touch with reality, then you will look like an idiot. People's ridicule of you is completely reasonable.

What is the significance of developing the JF-17 PFX into a fighter comparable to the F-16XL, whether it is Pakistan or China?

The J-10 series fighters were designed to compete with the F-16 fighter. We already have the J-10, so why should we foolishly develop another backward fighter based on the JF-17?

Totally agree instead going sale n F16XL fanboys wishes...

Best way for PAF to request china for local assembly of J10C ...

Simple .. .. sensible... Cost effective

 

[That_Guy]

PFX is beyond a concept. To advance work ONLY on JF-17 again (meaning back to early 2000's), why initiate a new project? More indigenization is normal in the same project. Don't need a new one.

PFX will a new jet, built on JF-17 related expertise and industrial base, with reuse of some shared technologies between aircrafts.

It's divided into Alpha and later into a 5th gen platform due to practicality purposes. The PAF needs delivery of advance systems. So while we figure out the 5th gen components, setup and master manufacturing, Alpha would give us similar capability to J-10C's with Pakistan's own touch into avionics and other components, including making PFX compatible with Turkish and Chinese weapons.

Probably the first weapon system being designed to use both Western / Turkish and Chinese weapons without needs for modification or interoperable "adapters".

No, just no.

If Pakistan had the capability to go that far, Project Azm wouldn't have failed

 

[RajaBaja]

No, just no.

If Pakistan had the capability to go that far, Project Azm wouldn't have failed

No.......because you said so sitting in Canada sipping Tim Horton coffee? If I told you a number about failed projects I've seen, which, eventually were scrapped, and new one's started to be successful, you might be surprised or shocked. About AZM, you can't WIN if you don't lose a couple of times. Failing is the first step towards success. The progress has to continue.

Or, everyone can just sit and sip coffee without worrying about how to defeat India the next time?