That_Guy
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
There's also the added issue that Russia has already pressured China into not exporting the J-11 derivatives (including the J-16) due to IP issues.
JF-17 PFX program
- Thread starter Zarvan
- Start date
Michael
VIP Member
According to public information, there is indeed an intellectual property protection agreement between China and Russia regarding the Su-27 series fighter jets and their derivative designs.
But this is not the point.
Many Pakistani friends' imaginations about PAF are completely out of touch with reality. This world is not a place where I can get whatever I need.
Ideally, any country needs heavy fighters (bomb trucks). But the reality is not like that. Many people simply understand the demand, but they don't know what price they have to pay for it.
Last edited:
StormBreaker
Trusted Member
The J-15 doesn’t fall under those agreement since China purchased the blueprint from Ukraine. J-15 is a beast, the best flanker China has got.
StormBreaker
Trusted Member
The thing that has a better chance to happen is my marriage.
We cannot do that for the next 30 years atleast unless we take a slow start today and spend 2 decades atleast.
Unless we get ToT from Guizhou or the KAAN engine project gets PAC/PAF involvement, That’s not possible.
Engine requires some unique types of alloys which can only be sourced.
That_Guy
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Russia owns the rights to the Flankers, regardless of which nation produces them.
The J-15 absolutely falls into that category.
corven
Registered Member
It is 2025 now. What power does Russia have to put pressure on China? What intellectual property rights in the J15 are related to Russia? Engine? Radar? Avionics? Structure? Apart from the similar appearance, what other parts are related to Russia?
Any agreement will only be observed if it is beneficial to both parties. When external conditions change, either tear up the agreement or reach a new agreement.
That_Guy
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Its less to do with rights, and more to do with geopolitics.
You don't piss off your allies for a few bucks.
China has more to gain from keeping Russia happy rather than pissing them off.
Besides, with 5th gen tech spreading, the flanker design is on the way out over the next few decades.
corven
Registered Member
Forget it. Russia is already very dissatisfied with not providing weapons support. This is much more serious than selling a few aircraft.
It is the same with countries. Where interests are common, we cooperate; where interests differ, we keep our own opinions to ourselves.
We don't need to please Russia now. They need us more now. To be frank, without our large-scale military and civilian dual-use material support, Russia would have been dying long ago. A typical example is nitrocellulose.
The Risk of China’s Nitrocellulose Advantage – And What the US Defense Industrial Base Can Do About It
And what the US defense industrial base can do about it.
forcedistancetimes.com
Pakistanithinktank
Registered Member
Russia has fallen behind China in technology. In the Future Russia will be seeking help from China.
That_Guy
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Its not just a matter of weapons and systems, it's a matter of resources.Forget it. Russia is already very dissatisfied with not providing weapons support. This is much more serious than selling a few aircraft.
It is the same with countries. Where interests are common, we cooperate; where interests differ, we keep our own opinions to ourselves.
We don't need to please Russia now. They need us more now. To be frank, without our large-scale military and civilian dual-use material support, Russia would have been dying long ago. A typical example is nitrocellulose.
The Risk of China’s Nitrocellulose Advantage – And What the US Defense Industrial Base Can Do About It
And what the US defense industrial base can do about it.
Your views are way too simplistic.
StormBreaker
Trusted Member
T-10K-3 (aka SU-33 of Ukraine) was acquired from Ukraine in the case of J-15.
Soviets both shared rights to the flankers and they built the J-15 by reverse engineering Ukrainian SU-33.
Michael
VIP Member
Guys, I think you are completely missing the point.
Pakistan is totally incapable of possessing modern heavy fighter aircraft.
PAF previously purchased 20 J-10CE fighters.
1. 20 J-10CE. This is a very small number. The standard establishment of a PLAAF fighter brigade is 24 fighters.
2. J-10CE is the cheapest fighter among China's modern fighters.
3. Even for this low and cheap fighter order, most of the funds for PAF's purchase still came from Chinese loans.
Modern heavy fighters are not only very expensive to buy, but also very expensive to maintain. This is not something Pakistan can afford.
If Pakistan has enough money and willingness, we can simplify the J-20 to make it cost the same as the J-16. I believe that at the same price, anyone will choose the J-20 (simplified version) instead of the J-16. This is not difficult for CAC.
Cancel the stealth skin and coating and use ordinary skin instead.
Simplify the E/W system of the J-20, moderately reduce the capacity of the AESA, etc. ...
This has no impact on China's national defense security.The core of the problem is: Pakistan has no money!!!
corven
Registered Member
I mean to tell you. Russia needs China more now, and China does not need to worry about whether Russia is happy. So, if we decide to sell heavy fighter jets abroad, Russia's opinion will not matter.
StormBreaker
Trusted Member
I won’t blame you for this since you have nothing to do with our internal politics and economy but we have undeclared reserves scattered globally. It’s a long political talk but in easy terms, We can bring the money whenever we actually need them. There’s more black money in Pakistan that one can think of. It has been evident in the name of additional remittances since the past 2 years.
Politics is a sh*tshow friend. Where do you think Pakistan paid for, for the HQ-9 acquisition? Our space Budget saw a 700% increment last year suspiciously and then got back to the older levels again this year.
RajaBaja
Trusted Member
Yes! JFT no doubt was a master stroke even with it's lower thrust engine. I think it should be added to almost every Tier II /III nation's air force in a few squadrons at least, for daily CAP's, workhorse stuff. Such a small cost to monitor your borders and create a deterrence with good BVR weapons.
I don't want to start a political debate here, as every good discussion is turned negative with politics. But Pakistan's assessed economic situation is about to change drastically from 2028. We are looking at a trillion plus economy in a few years. That's one fact by itself that it's time we built a mid range jet ourselves (with engine / some parts from China / Turkey) for the next 5-10 years. With more money available, engine TOT can be arranged also.
We have joint projects with Turkey and China already in the pipeline. Turkey's makes NATO standard weapons so our future jets and weapons will be interoperable to East and Western systems.
Expectations are that around 2028-2030, our GDP will be near or hit a trillion dollars. So our defense budget will hit 20 billion or more. It's time!
India is building Hypersonic missiles, long range bombers and about to acquire F-35's. So we need aggressive plans to counter it.
