PAF Very Own A2A Missiles [WVR, BVR & ALCM Stand off] News, Updates & Discussions

[hodor]

Frankly, we are a little late on the AESA radar. Ground tests have just finished, and soon the first flight tests will be carried out on Akinci. If our Murad AESA radar had been put into service 5 years ago, our air-air missiles would have already matured today.

We have no problems with missiles and seekers.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The Europeans are unlikely to share any technology with us. We are not an important customer.

Folks share technology to make you more dependent on them, not the other way round....

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I don't think we have anything the Turks lack. It's the opposite. The net beneficiary will be our side, not the Turks. The only thing we may be able to give the Turks is data, i.e., we test their AAMs at our instrumentation range and deploy them operationally, and report back with our findings. It's what we have done for China for decades.

If the PAF wants to get a little wild, it might try buying the entire AAM stack from Turkiye -- i.e., tech transfer for the dual-pulse motor rocket tech, seeker tech, etc -- and continue evolving it here as an R&D partner. That'd be an expensive route, but definitely worth it as the fundamental tech (e.g., rockets) can feed into both AAM and SAM applications. And we have enough need for both across the Tri-Services to generate scale and distribute the overhead for decades.

I will literally put a photo of this CAS in my office if we get GÖKTUĞ tech transfer... I am so dead about this because it's what I had hoped for with the Denel Marlin almost 10 years ago. If we're doing this now (albeit via Turkiye), it'd be huge.

I will sweeten the deal: If we get 100% tech transfer for GÖKTUĞ, I will put this CAS photo alongside a portrait of Zarvan in my office.

They lack a nuclear deterrence treaty as per the top Turkish strategic analysts. On top of it they need the talents in Pak and her deep relationship with China to circumvent the Western sanctions on the top edged "building blocks" to continue their programs......

*Netenyahuy's nut jobs have already threatened to "nuke out" the greater Israil encompassing a half of Turkey.

 

[alphapak]

Folks share technology to make you more dependent on them, not the other way round....

I want to see Faaz 2 with 180+ range on the KizilElma drone. That's
a great combo.

 

[hyperman]

I don't think we have anything the Turks lack. It's the opposite. The net beneficiary will be our side, not the Turks. The only thing we may be able to give the Turks is data, i.e., we test their AAMs at our instrumentation range and deploy them operationally, and report back with our findings. It's what we have done for China for decades.

If the PAF wants to get a little wild, it might try buying the entire AAM stack from Turkiye -- i.e., tech transfer for the dual-pulse motor rocket tech, seeker tech, etc -- and continue evolving it here as an R&D partner. That'd be an expensive route, but definitely worth it as the fundamental tech (e.g., rockets) can feed into both AAM and SAM applications. And we have enough need for both across the Tri-Services to generate scale and distribute the overhead for decades.

I will literally put a photo of this CAS in my office if we get GÖKTUĞ tech transfer... I am so dead about this because it's what I had hoped for with the Denel Marlin almost 10 years ago. If we're doing this now (albeit via Turkiye), it'd be huge.

I will sweeten the deal: If we get 100% tech transfer for GÖKTUĞ, I will put this CAS photo alongside a portrait of Zarvan in my office.

Turkey is getting something out of this as well, common munitions production. Its not just a matter of tech transfer. Having backup munitions supply is crucial. You can see in high intensive warfare, its difficult to produce things in the same quantity as you are expending them, see the Ukraine war for example, they are run out of air defense missiles in Ukraine, and the US can't produce enough to keep up the amount being expended.

This is where common munitions production comes in, for example Japan is currently producing Patriot missiles, that it is sending over to the US, which is allowing the US to give its own stock to Ukraine.

AAM missiles are incredibly flexible, they can be repurposed for SAM and Naval systems, like NASAMS does with the AIM-120. If there is every a high intensity conflict, its better to have more sources of production, that would not necessarily be economical or strategic to have all in one place. Having several allies produce the same thing and having a common munition, helps with such challenges.

 

[farooqbhai]

Official Press Release:

Both the commanders agreed to explore further avenues of bilateral cooperation, including collaboration for joint aerial exercises and training of Turkish Aircrew at PAF's Airpower Center of Excellence. They also agreed to elevate the existing partnership through Joint Working Groups focused on technology enhancement and core capability exchanges. The discussion also revolved around pursuing Air-to-Air Missile Technology exchange program to accrue maximum benefits for both Air Forces. In a bid to further consolidate the existing level of cooperation, both sides agreed to reinforce government-to-government, commercial-to-commercial, military-to-military and Air Force-to-Air Force collaboration. Deputy Chief of General Staff Turkish Armed Forces commended the professionalism of PAF and acknowledged its rising indigenous capacity in aviation industry.​

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It sounds like the PAF is trying to get Turkiye's technical support on its own AAM technology. I don't think this has much to do with FAAZ as that's likely a NESCOM program, but rather, this would probably be another NASTP initiative.

Thus far, NASTP programs involved getting outside contractors to design an original solution that would be built in Pakistan. Baykar, for example, designed the KaGeM V3 miniature ALCM, YX-series loitering munition, and Python-series loitering munition, which PAC will build (?).

In this case, we may see TUBITAK-SAGE design a new AAM family (i.e., LRAAM, HOBS AAM, dual IR/RF AAM), for the PAF based on the GÖKTUĞ technology. Realistically, PAC would likely import the core inputs (e.g., dual-pulse motor engines) from Turkiye.

I imagine the NESCOM project (FAAZ) is far more ambitious in scope in that the goal is likely to develop dual-pulse motor engines and other subsystems in Pakistan. However, it will take a much longer time and, probably, several iterations before induction. So, until then, the PAF could be seeking Turkish help for a co-produced solution. @JamD

Bayraktar has its own setup at NASTP where production of LMs is being done. For the Kagem however I believe it will be Al-Qaswa industries who will carry out its production. (Just a guess)

 

[Quwa]

The Europeans are unlikely to share any technology with us. We are not an important customer.

True, but there are other avenues to achieve the same goal, e.g., tying a large CAMM/ER order with an offset package where MBDA builds its own shop in Pakistan. This way, MBDA owns all the IP and controls it, but it uses the local economy to supply missiles to Pakistan.

Unfortunately, our wider investment environment isn't friendly: red tape, incompetency at both top and middle-layers, lack of tech absorption capacity (from dearth of public education and R&D investment), and other inefficiencies.

I'm not even talking about corruption or greed. It's straight-up incompetence. Let's take all for what it is - i.e., the military spends billions and billions on arms. OK. I doubt we're maxing the value out of every dollar, nor are we tying it to initiatives that can create output.

The Turkish defence industry is also dominated by their generals, but they're investors (via their pension foundation). They're the top board of directors, but otherwise, bureau management is all delegated down to subject matter experts from each respective field. You can imagine what the dividends look like for these generals when you post billions of defence exports each month.

Meanwhile, our leaders squabble over peanuts from our dwindling fiscal coffers, but they can't be bothered to build something big for generating real profit windfalls.

Just think of POF. Given Ukraine and the world's wider push to build ammunition stockpiles, did we take advantage of our lower labor and material costs to expand output and capture a serious share in all of these markets? No. On the contrary, India stepped into one of our traditional markets - Saudi Arabia - to sell their ammunition. However, we could have also expanded POF, maybe into multiple factories posted all over the country to both reinforce our wartime supply chain and drive exports. Imagine the jobs we could've created and, as importantly, the billions (from exports) our generals could've lined up for themselves.

Like, if you're going to do elite capture, at least do that with excellence @Oscar @JamD

 

[RAMPAGE]

True, but there are other avenues to achieve the same goal, e.g., tying a large CAMM/ER order with an offset package where MBDA builds its own shop in Pakistan. This way, MBDA owns all the IP and controls it, but it uses the local economy to supply missiles to Pakistan.

Unfortunately, our wider investment environment isn't friendly: red tape, incompetency at both top and middle-layers, lack of tech absorption capacity (from dearth of public education and R&D investment), and other inefficiencies.

I'm not even talking about corruption or greed. It's straight-up incompetence. Let's take all for what it is - i.e., the military spends billions and billions on arms. OK. I doubt we're maxing the value out of every dollar, nor are we tying it to initiatives that can create output.

The Turkish defence industry is also dominated by their generals, but they're investors (via their pension foundation). They're the top board of directors, but otherwise, bureau management is all delegated down to subject matter experts from each respective field. You can imagine what the dividends look like for these generals when you post billions of defence exports each month.

Meanwhile, our leaders squabble over peanuts from our dwindling fiscal coffers, but they can't be bothered to build something big for generating real profit windfalls.

Just think of POF. Given Ukraine and the world's wider push to build ammunition stockpiles, did we take advantage of our lower labor and material costs to expand output and capture a serious share in all of these markets? No. On the contrary, India stepped into one of our traditional markets - Saudi Arabia - to sell their ammunition. However, we could have also expanded POF, maybe into multiple factories posted all over the country to both reinforce our wartime supply chain and drive exports. Imagine the jobs we could've created and, as importantly, the billions (from exports) our generals could've lined up for themselves.

Like, if you're going to do elite capture, at least do that with excellence @Oscar @JamD

I suspect PA may invest in the weapons industry over the next few years. I remember Asad Umar recently said that the army wants to channel the technological know-how of the weapons industry into arms export.

The army has to do something with its pension funds. Given it is a major stakeholder in the weapons industry, it is not an unlikely investor. I suspect they wish to learn from Turkish success in the export market. This could be one of the reasons for the increased cooperation. We may see them jointly export weapons in the upcoming years.

 

[Ak01]

The Europeans are unlikely to share any technology with us. We are not an important customer.

To italy we are. CAMM-ER is an Italian MoD funded product, it is their discretion.

 

[CSAW]

"The coperation in A2A Missile Tech between PAF via PAC & NASTP with Turkish Projects means that other Turk Sub Systems would also find thier way in future PAF Platforms & inductions".

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[That_Guy]

The Europeans are unlikely to share any technology with us. We are not an important customer.

Actually, it depends on the nation.

The Italians are 100% on board with selling to Pakistan.

The British are willing to sell a number of technologies as well, to a limit of course.

The Germans as well have in the past indicated that they'd be open to selling to Pakistan.

The Swedes are willing to continue selling advanced tech to Pakistan.

The French are pretty much the only ones that are now firmly against selling to Pakistan, and that's mainly due to India's purchase of Rafale.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Actually, it depends on the nation.

The Italians are 100% on board with selling to Pakistan.

The British are willing to sell a number of technologies as well, to a limit of course.

The Germans as well have in the past indicated that they'd be open to selling to Pakistan.

The Swedes are willing to continue selling advanced tech to Pakistan.

The French are pretty much the only ones that are now firmly against selling to Pakistan, and that's mainly due to India's purchase of Rafale.

More due to killing of their engineers in Karachi during the Agostas and later our poor management after their cartoon fiasco. It's Pakistan that stepped away from France.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Yep, but I think this may materialize into something more. There is a strategic need to own our munitions pool; we're either stuck buying 100s of missiles upfront that expire, or could deplete our stockpile very quickly without a way to replenish them. Getting tech transfer for AAMs and SAMs is a good idea. The high upfront cost can be distributed through a multi-decade serial production run involving thousands of missiles for each of the Tri-Services.

Years ago when we wished the PAF was going to co-produce R-Darters with SA help. Not sure what happened to that program.
A-darters on JF-17 would have been a great addition too.

 

[Ark_Angel]

True, but there are other avenues to achieve the same goal, e.g., tying a large CAMM/ER order with an offset package where MBDA builds its own shop in Pakistan. This way, MBDA owns all the IP and controls it, but it uses the local economy to supply missiles to Pakistan.

Unfortunately, our wider investment environment isn't friendly: red tape, incompetency at both top and middle-layers, lack of tech absorption capacity (from dearth of public education and R&D investment), and other inefficiencies.

I'm not even talking about corruption or greed. It's straight-up incompetence. Let's take all for what it is - i.e., the military spends billions and billions on arms. OK. I doubt we're maxing the value out of every dollar, nor are we tying it to initiatives that can create output.

The Turkish defence industry is also dominated by their generals, but they're investors (via their pension foundation). They're the top board of directors, but otherwise, bureau management is all delegated down to subject matter experts from each respective field. You can imagine what the dividends look like for these generals when you post billions of defence exports each month.

Meanwhile, our leaders squabble over peanuts from our dwindling fiscal coffers, but they can't be bothered to build something big for generating real profit windfalls.

Just think of POF. Given Ukraine and the world's wider push to build ammunition stockpiles, did we take advantage of our lower labor and material costs to expand output and capture a serious share in all of these markets? No. On the contrary, India stepped into one of our traditional markets - Saudi Arabia - to sell their ammunition. However, we could have also expanded POF, maybe into multiple factories posted all over the country to both reinforce our wartime supply chain and drive exports. Imagine the jobs we could've created and, as importantly, the billions (from exports) our generals could've lined up for themselves.

Like, if you're going to do elite capture, at least do that with excellence @Oscar @JamD

Excellent input. However lets understand one fact Pakistan is technically not in the best of its fiscal position. CAAM-ER deal required alot of push from our side. Europeans are not interested in any off set deal with Pakistan. As far as Ukraine is concerned we sold a huge lot for a very low price to a third party because all the items you export(defence related from SOE) have a rate list devised by concerned ministry in this case small arms ammo rate had not been revised in almost a decade. Revision takes a lot of time which goes through multiple ministries and departments and then is finally revised. Therefore POF ammo is technically the cheapest there was even in a timeframe of high demand and large market requirement and customers willing to even pay a huge premium. But we couldn't cash this opportunity due to the red tape with in our systems. Pakistan would have made almost 5-10% when countries and entities worldwide were making almost 80-100 % on every consignment.

 

[Bilal]

More due to killing of their engineers in Karachi during the Agostas and later our poor management after their cartoon fiasco. It's Pakistan that stepped away from France.

No. It was indian market access that became much more strategically important.

The pulled out of JFT block 2 avionics deal due to Indian rafale interest also choosing U214 instead of marlin left some bad taste.

Soon after they clearly said they don’t want to do defence cooperation with Pakistan.