PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Michael]

Eventually J-20 and J-35 and Six Generation fighter will replace older platforms.

YES.

The J-10C is a very good performing fighter. But that doesn't hide the fact that “its platform is an outdated one” (for China).

Its superior performance comes from its subsystems and systematic combat platform. In other words, transfer its subsystems and systematic combat platforms to other fighter platforms, and its performance will be even better.

So let's let it rest in the Hall of Heroes.

 

[Scorpio]

Why does CAC continue to upgrade this outdated platform?

The J-10C will be the last major version of the J-10 series of fighters. If the J-10CE sells well in the future, CAC will, at best, only downgrade some of the more advanced technology to the J-10C, resulting in a lesser upgraded version.

China does engage in stubborn ongoing development of certain weapons systems. For example: H-6 bomber, Type 59 Tank ...... This is because China has no other better options. If we had better options, we would not hesitate to abandon these outdated weapon platforms. ------ Among the fighter platforms that China has now, the J-10 fighter platform is no longer worth keeping.

Totally agree, china do not need J10C advance variant for themselves... They have alot advance toys in there future list ..

My point was totally related to export variants in case they able to capture good numbers of customers plus high numbers of jet sales...

As J10C just capture the eyes of possible customers..

 

[Scorpio]

Question is will China do what LM did with F16 or close the production line.

Totally depends on customer numbers and quantities ...

If that values are high , why they close it .. remember china is business orientated country.. they know best how to earn ..

 

[Scorpio]

Air Chief and Dragon...

5.2K reactions · 113 shares | | Adil Abasi

www.facebook.com

 

[Scorpio]

J-10C with Helmet Mounted Cueing System:
Lock...
Track ...
Destroy ...
No Escape...
No Mercy ...

 

[Ali Yusuf]

YES.

The J-10C is a very good performing fighter. But that doesn't hide the fact that “its platform is an outdated one” (for China).

Its superior performance comes from its subsystems and systematic combat platform. In other words, transfer its subsystems and systematic combat platforms to other fighter platforms, and its performance will be even better.

So let's let it rest in the Hall of Heroes.

So far, no air force, not even the USAF, operates its entire fighter fleet comprising solely of 5th generation platforms (6th generation in the future). That day is still around 15 to 20 years in the future and maybe beyond that.

Reason? Costs don't justify the needs (not yet, at least).

So, whatever gets the job done will remain in place for now and may even receive upgraded blocks until the planned numbers are met.

The latest variant of the F-15 is a good example of the point I am trying to make.

 

[RajaBaja]

Do you think the Pak Deep State would ever disclose its true military, intelligence, financial, diplomatic etc. strengths? The entire world got shocked when the IAF got disbanded within 55 mins of ops, and that too without PAF's crossing the border! Such is the level of secrecy while the outsiders could only see the economic woes, political instability, widespread proxy terrorism etc....

You brought up good points. However, the world has seen the reality and now knows that Pakistan is truly the world's 6th largest military in the world. The execution of weapons, tactics, updated equipment (still need more of latest) has earned it that respect. South Asia isn't just an Indian domain, it's shared by Pakistan now. No one will doubt Pakistan or take her lightly.

There is a reason why Trump has given the amount of respect to Pakistan the way he did.

 

[RajaBaja]

View attachment 137886

Rafale ....... "I SEE YOU"

Why does CAC continue to upgrade this outdated platform?

The J-10C will be the last major version of the J-10 series of fighters. If the J-10CE sells well in the future, CAC will, at best, only downgrade some of the more advanced technology to the J-10C, resulting in a lesser upgraded version.

China does engage in stubborn ongoing development of certain weapons systems. For example: H-6 bomber, Type 59 Tank ...... This is because China has no other better options. If we had better options, we would not hesitate to abandon these outdated weapon platforms. ------ Among the fighter platforms that China has now, the J-10 fighter platform is no longer worth keeping.
Click to expand...

I've said it many times since J-10C version rolled out, in future, Chinese requirements will be all heavy platforms and stealth. J-10 was a great platform to create an industrial footprint and allow rapid transformation of PLAAF. But its use going forward is limited.

Pakistan should be actively seeking to enhance it's fleet by furthering J-10CE assembly in Pakistan. It's TOT is also possible with a decent cost.

 

[Michael]

My point was totally related to export variants in case they able to capture good numbers of customers plus high numbers of jet sales...

Under modern scientific and technological conditions, more advanced weapons mean higher production costs. For the fighter foreign trade market, the JF-17B3 and J-10CE are good choices if the customer has very limited funds. If the customer has very abundant funds, then, FC-31/J-35 is more suitable for them.

For China, we have various grades of foreign trade type fighters for customers to choose. But there is no need for us to upgrade a separate J-10X to satisfy our tiny foreign trade market when we don't need it ourselves.

Remember: upgrading a large version of a fighter is very costly.
For China, the foreign trade business of fighter jets is just a subsidiary business. It is not important.
Unless there is a customer willing to pay for R&D separately ......

So far, no air force, not even the USAF, operates its entire fighter fleet comprising solely of 5th generation platforms (6th generation in the future). That day is still around 15 to 20 years in the future and maybe beyond that.

Reason? Costs don't justify the needs (not yet, at least).

So, whatever gets the job done will remain in place for now and may even receive upgraded blocks until the planned numbers are met.

The latest variant of the F-15 is a good example of the point I am trying to make.

1, The J-10 series fighter platform is not the only 4th-Gen fighter platform China has.

2. Stopping the development of a larger version of the J-10 series fighter does not mean we have to abandon it now. It will remain in PLAAF service for a long time.

3, You can't use the US situation as an analogy for the Chinese situation. China has been producing all kinds of advanced fighters in large quantities and at high speeds in recent years. But we still have some old fighters.

 

[Scorpio]

Under modern scientific and technological conditions, more advanced weapons mean higher production costs. For the fighter foreign trade market, the JF-17B3 and J-10CE are good choices if the customer has very limited funds. If the customer has very abundant funds, then, FC-31/J-35 is more suitable for them.

For China, we have various grades of foreign trade type fighters for customers to choose. But there is no need for us to upgrade a separate J-10X to satisfy our tiny foreign trade market when we don't need it ourselves.

Remember: upgrading a large version of a fighter is very costly.
For China, the foreign trade business of fighter jets is just a subsidiary business. It is not important.
Unless there is a customer willing to pay for R&D separately ......

1, The J-10 series fighter platform is not the only 4th-Gen fighter platform China has.

2. Stopping the development of a larger version of the J-10 series fighter does not mean we have to abandon it now. It will remain in PLAAF service for a long time.

3, You can't use the US situation as an analogy for the Chinese situation. China has been producing all kinds of advanced fighters in large quantities and at high speeds in recent years. But we still have some old fighters.

In your opinion.. will china go single engine version of 5th .. waterdown of J20 or J35 ...

J10s and JF17 both are single engine jet , chines reaming advance jets are twin engines...

For counties with limited funds flying and maintenance cost also matters alot...

Like Russia is working on su75 ...

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

There is a reason why Trump has given the amount of respect to Pakistan the way he did.

The most successful US CEOs take only 60 seconds (not kidding) to understand the situation and take a decision. And, they expect their top subordinates (earing top $s) to answer to their inquiries within 5seconds with a YES or NO. If they fail they're immediately fired. Few examples below:

• Is the IAF at par with the PAF?
• Can we trust the Pak Deep State with our strategic objectives for the CA?
• Are there critical minerals in enough reserves present in Pakistan?
• Are there enough shale hydrocarbons reserves in Pakistan to be feasibly extracted?
• Can Bharat do anything worthy for us?
• Etc.

 

[Michael]

In your opinion.. will china go single engine version of 5th .. waterdown of J20 or J35 ...

J10s and JF17 both are single engine jet , chines reaming advance jets are twin engines...

For counties with limited funds flying and maintenance cost also matters alot...

Like Russia is working on su75 ...

Again.

China's military industrial enterprises are all focused on meeting PLA's needs as their first priority. Their weapons foreign trade business is not profitable, it is a very small ancillary business.

SAC's FC-31 program was initially positioned for the international foreign trade market. However, without PLA orders, the program would have died a long time ago. and SAC would have been severely slowed down by the program.

This is the current situation in China.

As for the foreign trade market, please don't make too many associations. It doesn't make sense.

China's large military foreign trade products are all trimmed down from PLA's self-use version, re-adapted and then exported. Only small and medium-sized projects may be exclusively for export.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I don't think the country shown any interest in upgrading the J10, they are going for J-35 in mass numbers instead

The F!6 has had a very long and successful history as an export fighter as Lockheed Martin continually upgraded the platform at its own cost and then provided that for export and that strategy was successful for sales. When customers asked for specific things, then Lockheed Martin did that as well.

If China is looking to make the J-35AE its primary export fighter and bring the J10CE to an end, then that is of course China needs to determine if that is a good strategy for China for its foreign policy of making strategic alliances and reducing American influence through military sales. Egypt is an example of China making inroads into countries that were historically totally USA dependent for weapons procurements.

Not every country can afford, or need stealth and its associated long term maintenance costs, especially of a twin engine. For that scenario, is the non-stealth single engine export platform the JF17 or J10CE the strategic offering by China? If it is the J10CE, then China has to continually invest and upgrade the platform to keep it relevant for possible sales. If it takes the approach of right now, there is not interest so we wont invest in upgrading it to keep it relevant for future possible sales that it will not have any future sales as the platform will be seen as a stagnant platform.

If China wants to keep the choice of J10CE as an export product for the future, then it has to invest in the platform and should be working on a new J10DE project regardless of 'immediate customer interest'. The UK continues to invest in Tyhpoon and has picked up the Turkish order, even though it is working on GCAP.

 

[RajaBaja]

In your opinion.. will china go single engine version of 5th .. waterdown of J20 or J35 ...

J10s and JF17 both are single engine jet , chines reaming advance jets are twin engines...

For counties with limited funds flying and maintenance cost also matters alot...

Like Russia is working on su75 ...

China will not need single engine jets going forward. Their doctrine is based on twin engine jets due to required range, war theaters and tactics. J-10C will remain in Chinese service for littoral defense and internal CAPs.

There is no "water down" of the J-20 and J-35, in fact, more capability will be built and enhancements done. The competition is with F-35, F-22 and NGAD like platforms. Water down means you lose.

Russia is a big NUKE power ONLY. It's situation and China's situations have no comparison. I think if there ever was an even competitor in American history, it's China.

The most successful US CEOs take only 60 seconds (not kidding) to understand the situation and take a decision. And, they expect their top subordinates (earing top $s) to answer to their inquiries within 5seconds with a YES or NO. If they fail they're immediately fired. Few examples below:

• Is the IAF at par with the PAF?
• Can we trust the Pak Deep State with our strategic objectives for the CA?
• Are there critical minerals in enough reserves present in Pakistan?
• Are there enough shale hydrocarbons reserves in Pakistan to be feasibly extracted?
• Can Bharat do anything worthy for us?
• Etc.

It's not the case. I can say this with 1000% confidence and "with experience". CEO's and their Executive Teams are not Chat GPT's that you ask a question and it throws out an answer in 5 seconds. People are also not fired for not being Chat GPT fast

In fact, I've personally witnessed 3/4/5 meetings getting postponed on ONE issue because the details presented couldn't answer or address the situation properly. So the CEO's said "let's meet again and do some more home work".

This also gets into India - Trump situation. India will beg Trump for forgiveness. May be in private, why? Indians are good at work execution. US needs that skillset in labor and pays top dollars. Indians will never want to lose such a lucrative high paying market worth hundreds of billions annually, whether they work in America or from India. The forgiveness for mistakes is a lot.

Indian executives work for a few years, make 2/3 "expensive" mistakes, and when they leave, they already have 2 companies running in India and US, often with the same product set that fits into one of their employer's product set. How smart?

 

[LX1111]

The F!6 has had a very long and successful history as an export fighter as Lockheed Martin continually upgraded the platform at its own cost and then provided that for export and that strategy was successful for sales. When customers asked for specific things, then Lockheed Martin did that as well.

If China is looking to make the J-35AE its primary export fighter and bring the J10CE to an end, then that is of course China needs to determine if that is a good strategy for China for its foreign policy of making strategic alliances and reducing American influence through military sales. Egypt is an example of China making inroads into countries that were historically totally USA dependent for weapons procurements.

Not every country can afford, or need stealth and its associated long term maintenance costs, especially of a twin engine. For that scenario, is the non-stealth single engine export platform the JF17 or J10CE the strategic offering by China? If it is the J10CE, then China has to continually invest and upgrade the platform to keep it relevant for possible sales. If it takes the approach of right now, there is not interest so we wont invest in upgrading it to keep it relevant for future possible sales that it will not have any future sales as the platform will be seen as a stagnant platform.

If China wants to keep the choice of J10CE as an export product for the future, then it has to invest in the platform and should be working on a new J10DE project regardless of 'immediate customer interest'. The UK continues to invest in Tyhpoon and has picked up the Turkish order, even though it is working on GCAP.

The J10C may be upgraded, but not too much. AVIC (Guiyang) does not have the ability develop a separate improved model , especially without a target customer.