Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[ShapurII]

All you said it is true.

1º.- Air Force have been key in the damage inflicted by Israel to Irán.

2º.- Irán needs urgently to refurbish and create a real air force with long range interceptors and capable of real BVR combat and maximum real awareness (that requires modern AEW/AWACS capability). And that take YEARS.

But the point I disagree it is that IRI authorities did know. They did know perfectly they were fighting with a tied hand. But the problem have been always two:

1º.- IRI doesn´t have money for a modern multirole air force and a huge missile force. Scarcity seems to have pushed IRI to choose one.

2º.- Technological restrictions. I don´t know if Russia have violated any hypothetical weapons transfer agreement. But seems clearly day after day that everybody tried to degrade IRIAF don´t allowing any meaningful weapon sells to IRI. From US to Japan, including probably Russia and possibly even China. No one wanted IRI to build a real and capable IRIAF.

The fall of Lebanese allied (HZ) and the constant harassment from US to China maybe shift the perspective of high technological transfer to IRI from alternative suppliers (China it is the sole real alternative to Su35 or Mig29).

But let´s be honest. Nobody in the Middle East want a challeging and modern IRIAF. Let´s see if Xi understand that a huge arms deal with IRI can break the straitjacket from other part than Taiwán.

False, Iran has enough money to maintain one of the world's largest and best-equipped air forces in the world, on par with countries like Saudi Arabia or the UK.

How much money do you think the Shah had that Iran had the world's 5th largest air force? The Shah created a formidable air force with oil prices that fluctuated from $4 to $16 per barrel.

A country that wasted 50 billion dollars in Syria alone, which is the amount of money for 1000 J-10C fighters, does not have a money problem. Oil prices reached $110 per barrel during Ahmadinejad's time. Even now, Iran's oil income is not less than the time of the Shah, even if we adjust $14 per barrel for inflation and include the discount we give to China.

Nobody has been trying to degrade the IRIAF more than the Ayatollahs themselves. The Ayatollahs are afraid of the Iranian Air Force because the Imperial Air Force of Iran tried to topple them in the Nozheh Coup.
Iranian pilots were not ideologically fooled and blinded by the revolution and they kept their critical thinking. And the Ayatollahs just do not like people who can use their brains, they need ideologues who worship their stupid ideas. It's just as simple as that.

The Ayatollahs could've rearmed the IRIAF after UNSC sanctions were lifted in 2021. What did they do for the IRIAF? Nothing. In fact, the idea that weapons sanctions should remain in place was even accepted by Zarif while China and Russia disagreed with it.

It's hard to start an air force from scratch now. They should've never let the IRIAF die in the first place. Russia delivered Iran tens of RD-33 engines for our Mig-29s in early 2000s. If Iran had continued to maintain its air force, we would've never had any of these "technological restrictions" to begin with.

 

[muhammed45]

False, Iran has enough money to maintain one of the world's largest and best-equipped air forces in the world, on par with countries like Saudi Arabia or the UK.

How much money do you think the Shah had that Iran had the world's 5th largest air force? The Shah created a formidable air force with oil prices that fluctuated from $4 to $16 per barrel.

A country that wasted 50 billion dollars in Syria alone, which is the amount of money for 1000 J-10C fighters, does not have a money problem. Oil prices reached $110 per barrel during Ahmadinejad's time. Even now, Iran's oil income is not less than the time of the Shah, even if we adjust $14 per barrel for inflation and include the discount we give to China.

Nobody has been trying to degrade the IRIAF more than the Ayatollahs themselves. The Ayatollahs are afraid of the Iranian Air Force because the Imperial Air Force of Iran tried to topple them in the Nozheh Coup.
Iranian pilots were not ideologically fooled and blinded by the revolution and they kept their critical thinking. And the Ayatollahs just do not like people who can use their brains, they need ideologues who worship their stupid ideas. It's just as simple as that.

The Ayatollahs could've rearmed the IRIAF after UNSC sanctions were lifted in 2021. What did they do for the IRIAF? Nothing. In fact, the idea that weapons sanctions should remain in place was even accepted by Zarif while China and Russia disagreed with it.

It's hard to start an air force from scratch now. They should've never let the IRIAF die in the first place. Russia delivered Iran tens of RD-33 engines for our Mig-29s in early 2000s. If Iran had continued to maintain its air force, we would've never had any of these "technological restrictions" to begin with.

You left a list of lies. But anyways, i have to clarify.

When Bani Sadr in collaboration with CIA and Mossad tried to give F-14s back to USA, it was Khamenei that stopped the traitors. It is proven and documented. IRIAF remained alive thanks to him. Many traitors tried to weaken IRIAF but they failed.

Khamenei not only saved IRIAF but also he and the Shahid pilot Sattari started local projects for strengthening IRIAF.

IRIAF is closer than ever to unveiling a fighter in class of F-20.

Its true that Khamenei opposes huge imports from foreign countries, its because he wants IRIAF to reach a point of superiority that its sub companies could produce a fighter jet at will. That is what a forethoughtful leader would want for his military men. Independence and absolute strength.

Nouzheh coup was defused by one of IRIAF commanders ironically. IRIAF is one of the most patriotic forces of Iranian armed forces second to non. They have shown us what they are capable of, remember when an Iranian pilot headed his fighter jet to a building in Baghdad just to prove that his leader's demand will not remain unanswered.

I know that this forum esp Iran section has turned into yet an other IranInternational allowing insults to military and leadership of Iran. But guess what its going to be just an other anti Iran shithole like BBC, VOA, RadioFarda, Deutsche welle, Anatolia, Azerbaijani, NYT, WSJ etc etc etc.

Our ears are used to hear bullshit, our eyes are used to see foreign media trying to throw their non sense at us, but our mind and heart has an anti Virus that gets updated every second. That is why we are not an other Syria or Iraq.

 

[ShapurII]

You left a list of lies. But anyways, i have to clarify.

When Bani Sadr in collaboration with CIA and Mossad tried to give F-14s back to USA, it was Khamenei that stopped the traitors. It is proven and documented. IRIAF remained alive thanks to him. Many traitors tried to weaken IRIAF but they failed.

When did this happen exactly? Do you have any solid proof that Bani-Sadr wanted to give F-14s back to the US?

Khamenei not only saved IRIAF but also he and the Shahid pilot Sattari started local projects for strengthening IRIAF.

He and Sattari? How did he help exactly? Did he have a knowledge of aerospace engineering that we don't know of?

IRIAF is closer than ever to unveiling a fighter in class of F-20.

That's what you guys have been saying for the last 15 years.

Its true that Khamenei opposes huge imports from foreign countries, its because he wants IRIAF to reach a point of superiority that its sub companies could produce a fighter jet at will. That is what a forethoughtful leader would want for his military men. Independence and absolute strength.

Yeah, good luck with that. You cannot let your air force die when you're working on side projects. Nobody else has done that. Did Turkey stop purchasing foreign equipment as they worked on their own local industry? What sort of nonsense is that?

Nouzheh coup was defused by one of IRIAF commanders ironically. IRIAF is one of the most patriotic forces of Iranian armed forces second to non. They have shown us what they are capable of, remember when an Iranian pilot headed his fighter jet to a building in Baghdad just to prove that his leader's demand will not remain unanswered.

Nope, it was defused by a regular pilot, not an IRIAF commander. He woke up and told his mother that they were going to bomb Khomeini's house and his mother told him that she would not forgive him if he didn't expose the plot. This is the official story by the Islamic Republic.

There are other stories as well, like the US had planned it all along to weaken the IRIAF before a bloody war with Saddam and the IR actually fell for it and executed many of our pilots and air force commanders, but I think you don't like to hear that version.

I know that this forum esp Iran section has turned into yet an other IranInternational allowing insults to military and leadership of Iran. But guess what its going to be just an other anti Iran shithole like BBC, VOA, RadioFarda, Deutsche welle, Anatolia, Azerbaijani, NYT, WSJ etc etc etc.

This forum used to be like Mashreghnews and you guys pretended everything was good and Israel would never dare to fire a bullet at Iran and the US would be crushed if they attacked Iran, and our generals were geniuses because missiles and drones are better than an air force and who needs an air force when you have missiles and drones and long-range air defense, and blah blah blah.

Guess what? Israel did attack Iran, killed +1,100 Iranians, including 30 high-ranking commanders (confirmed by Iran) and injured 5,700 Iranians in 12 days. Israel even hit Iran worse than Gaza, averaging nearly 100 deaths per day! They established air superiority over two corridors over Iran, at least. Our drones performed extremely poorly and our air defense was almost non-existent throughout the war. The IRIAF had to run away and hide during the war. In return, Israel lost 28-35 civilians, an off-duty soldier, and had 4,000 injuries. The Americans didn't have even a single casualty after bombing 3 of our nuclear sites.

Our ears are used to hear bullshit, our eyes are used to see foreign media trying to throw their non sense at us, but our mind and heart has an anti Virus that gets updated every second. That is why we are not an other Syria or Iraq.

All that means is that you're a brainwashed fool. Iran is now in a situation worse than Iraq before 2003. And all the signs of economic collapse are there. I would be happy for Iran to have the fate of Syria, because I know when shit hits the fan, they will do 10 times worse to us and they are moving in that direction.

 

[BigMela2onin]

IRIAF is closer than ever to unveiling a fighter in class of F-20.

The situation is bad when this is seen as an achievement. China has multiple 6th gen fighters flying now, what good is a F-20 class fighter?

Its true that Khamenei opposes huge imports from foreign countries, its because he wants IRIAF to reach a point of superiority that its sub companies could produce a fighter jet at will. That is what a forethoughtful leader would want for his military men. Independence and absolute strength.

khamenei cannot adapt to the reality that this is not viable, Iran does not have the resources or the ability to keep highly skilled engineers for such projects. He is too rigid and he insists on breaking Iran before bending.

I know that this forum esp Iran section has turned into yet an other IranInternational allowing insults to military and leadership of Iran. But guess what its going to be just an other anti Iran shithole like BBC, VOA, RadioFarda, Deutsche welle, Anatolia, Azerbaijani, NYT, WSJ etc etc etc.

Our ears are used to hear bullshit, our eyes are used to see foreign media trying to throw their non sense at us, but our mind and heart has an anti Virus that gets updated every second. That is why we are not an other Syria or Iraq.

Denying reality and refusing to recognize the need for and make changes is pro-jew behavior. You are helping the enemy with this kind of mentality.

 

[Flotilla]

False, Iran has enough money to maintain one of the world's largest and best-equipped air forces in the world, on par with countries like Saudi Arabia or the UK.

Well, if you compare GDP of Iran in front of Saudi Arabia one you will find that real Iran economy against the ropes.

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/IRN

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/SAU

It is a third of that one of the Saudi Arabia.

How much money do you think the Shah had that Iran had the world's 5th largest air force? The Shah created a formidable air force with oil prices that fluctuated from $4 to $16 per barrel.

You can´t compare the USD in seventies with the nowadays one.

It's hard to start an air force from scratch now. They should've never let the IRIAF die in the first place. Russia delivered Iran tens of RD-33 engines for our Mig-29s in early 2000s. If Iran had continued to maintain its air force, we would've never had any of these "technological restrictions" to begin with.

The technological ostracism have been implemented also by Russia because of Israeli and western pressure.

Nobody has been trying to degrade the IRIAF more than the Ayatollahs themselves. The Ayatollahs are afraid of the Iranian Air Force because the Imperial Air Force of Iran tried to topple them in the Nozheh Coup.
Iranian pilots were not ideologically fooled and blinded by the revolution and they kept their critical thinking. And the Ayatollahs just do not like people who can use their brains, they need ideologues who worship their stupid ideas. It's just as simple as that.

For sure iranian Government realized that without Air Force they´re easy targets for zionists and even US. And if IRI doesn´t want to rebuild IRIAF, ok, they can build IRGCAF. Their Su-22 have shown that with money and will IRGC can operate combat aircrafts.

I can understand your deception but not relies over the shoulders of IRI Government. It is amazing how this Regime have survived to plots and wars, and again they succeeded.

 

[ShapurII]

Well, if you compare GDP of Iran in front of Saudi Arabia one you will find that real Iran economy against the ropes.

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/IRN

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/SAU

It is a third of that one of the Saudi Arabia.

That's irrelevant and has nothing to do with anything. A country that spends 50 billion dollars in Syria alone in a span of 10-15 years has enough money for a world-class air force. Period.

Iran has spent way over 100 billion dollars in the region since 1980s. That's enough for a top-notch, world-class air force.

You can´t compare the USD in seventies with the nowadays one.

Yes, you can. That's what inflation-adjusted means It means that you have taken into account the inflation of USD over the years.

The technological ostracism have been implemented also by Russia because of Israeli and western pressure.

No, not really. As I said, Russia sold Iran RD-33 engines during the presidency of Khatami and helped us upgrade our Iraqi Mig-29s. Even after the JCPOA, both Russia and China insisted on lifting Iran's weapons embargo as soon as JCPOA was signed. It was the regime itself that accepted a 5-year weapons embargo, to the surprise of the Chinese and the Russians. China will never say no to large sums of money.

For sure iranian Government realized that without Air Force they´re easy targets for zionists and even US. And if IRI doesn´t want to rebuild IRIAF, ok, they can build IRGCAF. Their Su-22 have shown that with money and will IRGC can operate combat aircrafts.

The IRGCAF as an air force is a joke. It's even a sadder joke than the IRGC replacing the Ministry of Intelligence.

I can understand your deception but not relies over the shoulders of IRI Government. It is amazing how this Regime have survived to plots and wars, and again they succeeded.

Succeeded in what exactly? Ruining the country? Sending the country back in time? Drying up Tehran to the point that 10-15 million citizens don't have drinking water? or have 2-4 hours of electricity cuts every other day like in war-torn countries? Or getting our ass kicked by a country that is one-tenth of our population and one-eightieth of our size? Or losing one of our most geostrategic roads to Europe for 100 years? Or ruining the country's economy to the point of collapse over a useless nuclear program that they couldn't even defend from getting obliterated in 12 days? Or turning Iran into the subservient of an isolated ex-power like Russia? What have they succeeded in exactly?

 

[Flotilla]

The IRGCAF as an air force is a joke. It's even a sadder joke than the IRGC replacing the Ministry of Intelligence.

The Su22 of IRGCAF integrated and at least tested glide bombs and even test a aeroballistic missile, in a moment where the Russian Air Force didn´t know what is a glide bomb.

Succeeded in what exactly?

Just in surviving. Don´t bring things together, everybody has water shortages in the area, from Afganisthan to Pakistan. Electricity shortages are common in persistent hiking temperatures coming from climate change. Even in Spain we have suffered a electricity cut recently.

Let´s go in topic.

I´ve localized at least three Air Force and Navy Air Force with ongoing modernization places;

First one Hamedan AFB

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

It is visible a new hardened site and beyond it, new paved entrance in othe hardened sites,



At least one runway have been paved new



The other most obvious it is Bandar Abbas, Havadarya which AFAIK it is for the Navy, it is newly paved



But not that obvious they´re preparing land to expand installation or just TARMAC.



That is probably suggesting new naval aviation services for... what exactly?.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

And third one it is HESA Air Base at Isfahan are also expanding new buildings. Something we knew a year and a half before;



This place localed in the north-east seems to be a new hangar to storage aircrafts for test flights after assembling,

Not that obvious it is that runway have been considerably enlarged, probably one kilometre more.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

There are also new installations being constructed inside the factory;

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Those movements makes me think that IRI is betting for refurbushing Air Force and Naval Air Arm/Force.

 

[ShapurII]

The Su22 of IRGCAF integrated and at least tested glide bombs and even test a aeroballistic missile, in a moment where the Russian Air Force didn´t know what is a glide bomb.

It's useless if it can't takeoff or stay airborne. Our air force, be it IRGCAF or IRIAF, cannot survive in a hostile environment even within our borders because it has been neglected for far too long. We need to import technology for now. It's a reality that has been constantly repeated for the last 15 years on this forum.

Just in surviving. Don´t bring things together, everybody has water shortages in the area, from Afganisthan to Pakistan. Electricity shortages are common in persistent hiking temperatures coming from climate change. Even in Spain we have suffered a electricity cut recently.

"Just in surviving" is good for the regime, not for the people of Iran. Yeah, they have "survived" so far to empty the pockets of Iranians even more, cause even more damage to the country, but it is not something that is in the interest of Iranians or the country of Iran.

Yes, Italy and Spain have suffered electricity cuts too, and Italy is also dealing with water shortage as an environmental issue. But Rome and Milan have both stable electricity and drinking water, all major Italian cities do. Iran is being sent back to the level of central African nations, not even northern African nations. Also, Italy and Spain aren't energy super powers like Iran is. The same is true about Pakistan and Afghanistan. We are on a Pakistani forum now. Why don't you ask Pakistanis if Islamabad has drinking water or not?

Let´s go in topic.

I´ve localized at least three Air Force and Navy Air Force with ongoing modernization places;

First one Hamedan AFB

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

View attachment 139755

It is visible a new hardened site and beyond it, new paved entrance in othe hardened sites,

View attachment 139756

At least one runway have been paved new

View attachment 139758

The other most obvious it is Bandar Abbas, Havadarya which AFAIK it is for the Navy, it is newly paved

View attachment 139759

But not that obvious they´re preparing land to expand installation or just TARMAC.

View attachment 139760

That is probably suggesting new naval aviation services for... what exactly?.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

And third one it is HESA Air Base at Isfahan are also expanding new buildings. Something we knew a year and a half before;

View attachment 139762

This place localed in the north-east seems to be a new hangar to storage aircrafts for test flights after assembling,

Not that obvious it is that runway have been considerably enlarged, probably one kilometre more.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

There are also new installations being constructed inside the factory;

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Those movements makes me think that IRI is betting for refurbushing Air Force and Naval Air Arm/Force.

When it comes to Iran's air force, I will believe only what I can see.
Shafaq, Azarakhsh, Saegheh, Sofreh Mahi, Kowsar, Yasin, Su-30, Qaher313 (lol), Sukhoi-35, etc.
Just one failure and cheap propaganda after another...

Remember how everyone here was talking about Su-35s?
Go read a few posts earlier. I said we would never get them and Russia would never deliver them. Guess what? We have had major issues in planning, management and strategy in the last 2 decades and we are finally starting to see its consequences.

 

[Abid123]

Just in surviving. Don´t bring things together, everybody has water shortages in the area, from Afganisthan to Pakistan.

I don’t want to go off topic, but Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan all share one thing — decades of absolutely useless leadership.

 

[Shags101]

I don’t want to go off topic, but Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan all share one thing — decades of absolutely useless leadership.

To be fair that’s all Muslim and Arab leadership

 

[kastor ville]

You left a list of lies. But anyways, i have to clarify.

When Bani Sadr in collaboration with CIA and Mossad tried to give F-14s back to USA, it was Khamenei that stopped the traitors. It is proven and documented. IRIAF remained alive thanks to him. Many traitors tried to weaken IRIAF but they failed.

Khamenei not only saved IRIAF but also he and the Shahid pilot Sattari started local projects for strengthening IRIAF.

IRIAF is closer than ever to unveiling a fighter in class of F-20.

Its true that Khamenei opposes huge imports from foreign countries, its because he wants IRIAF to reach a point of superiority that its sub companies could produce a fighter jet at will. That is what a forethoughtful leader would want for his military men. Independence and absolute strength.

Nouzheh coup was defused by one of IRIAF commanders ironically. IRIAF is one of the most patriotic forces of Iranian armed forces second to non. They have shown us what they are capable of, remember when an Iranian pilot headed his fighter jet to a building in Baghdad just to prove that his leader's demand will not remain unanswered.

I know that this forum esp Iran section has turned into yet an other IranInternational allowing insults to military and leadership of Iran. But guess what its going to be just an other anti Iran shithole like BBC, VOA, RadioFarda, Deutsche welle, Anatolia, Azerbaijani, NYT, WSJ etc etc etc.

Our ears are used to hear bullshit, our eyes are used to see foreign media trying to throw their non sense at us, but our mind and heart has an anti Virus that gets updated every second. That is why we are not an other Syria or Iraq.

Hogwash!....if you can't handle the discussion, then feel free not to read it. This isn't a thread full of Iran haters, quite the opposite, it's full of Iranians who want to see Iran succeed......if anything, the war with Israel has proven a lot of people in this thread correct. I can't say the same for the guys who spout the same old rhetoric. One last thing, some of us believe we should be able to critique bad policy, and bad leadership.....we either have a democracy or we have police state.....which is it?

 

[kastor ville]

The situation is bad when this is seen as an achievement. China has multiple 6th gen fighters flying now, what good is a F-20 class fighter?

khamenei cannot adapt to the reality that this is not viable, Iran does not have the resources or the ability to keep highly skilled engineers for such projects. He is too rigid and he insists on breaking Iran before bending.

Denying reality and refusing to recognize the need for and make changes is pro-jew behavior. You are helping the enemy with this kind of mentality.

Let's be real an 80 yr old cleric doesn't have the tools to compete in the arena of predators like Israel, Trump and the EU. How do we know this? FACTS.....the last few decades prove it! Our economy, our defense, our employment levels, our wealth, all prove who is right, and how is full of shit.

 

[kastor ville]

It's useless if it can't takeoff or stay airborne. Our air force, be it IRGCAF or IRIAF, cannot survive in a hostile environment even within our borders because it has been neglected for far too long. We need to import technology for now. It's a reality that has been constantly repeated for the last 15 years on this forum.


"Just in surviving" is good for the regime, not for the people of Iran. Yeah, they have "survived" so far to empty the pockets of Iranians even more, cause even more damage to the country, but it is not something that is in the interest of Iranians or the country of Iran.

Yes, Italy and Spain have suffered electricity cuts too, and Italy is also dealing with water shortage as an environmental issue. But Rome and Milan have both stable electricity and drinking water, all major Italian cities do. Iran is being sent back to the level of central African nations, not even northern African nations. Also, Italy and Spain aren't energy super powers like Iran is. The same is true about Pakistan and Afghanistan. We are on a Pakistani forum now. Why don't you ask Pakistanis if Islamabad has drinking water or not?


When it comes to Iran's air force, I will believe only what I can see.
Shafaq, Azarakhsh, Saegheh, Sofreh Mahi, Kowsar, Yasin, Su-30, Qaher313 (lol), Sukhoi-35, etc.
Just one failure and cheap propaganda after another...

Remember how everyone here was talking about Su-35s?
Go read a few posts earlier. I said we would never get them and Russia would never deliver them. Guess what? We have had major issues in planning, management and strategy in the last 2 decades and we are finally starting to see its consequences.

Thank you.....you brought the receipts.
As I said....FACTs are a bitch, very hard to ignore.

 

[muhammed45]

Hogwash!....if you can't handle the discussion, then feel free not to read it. This isn't a thread full or Iran haters, quite the opposite, it's full of Iranians who want to see Iran succeed......if anything the war with Israel has proven a lot of people in this thread correct. I can't say the same for the guys who spout the same old rhetoric. One last thing, some us believe we should be able to critique bad policy and bad leadership.....we have either have a democracy or we have police state.....which is it?

You guys are idiots if you think that Iran has lost opportunities to procure new jet fighters. You speak as if China or Russia have parked their jets on our borders and are begging us to receive them free of charge.

China is an opportunist country and Russia was a European aligned country having good relationship with Israel until just recently that they invaded Ukraine.

Best way to bring IRIAF back on stage is local projects. Other than that, its just fill the gap process or else waste of resources.

 

[kastor ville]

You guys are idiots if you think that Iran has lost opportunities to procure new jet fighters. You speak as if China or Russia have parked their jets on our borders and are begging us to receive them free of charge.

China is an opportunist country and Russia was a European aligned country having good relationship with Israel until just recently that they invaded Ukraine.

Best way to bring IRIAF back on stage is local projects. Other than that, its just fill the gap process or else waste of resources.

Dude, I don't have to insult you back, because it's not right to pick on the handicapped. But, your ideas and opinions have proven false, not by me or people in this thread, but by the situation we are in....to use a Latin term "Prima Facie" it is clear who is right and who is dreadfully wrong!