Pakistan Rocket Force Command News and Discussions

[r3alist]

The saving grace for Pakistan is India’s own incompetence. They solve even 50% of it and there will be MKis flying over Islamabad and taking pot shots here and there while these Jarnail make veiled threats of “Do not dare cross this line or we will launch that!”

I'm sure there are external actors other than Pakistan who have an interest in certain issues within Indian not being solved.

To that extent, the various interconnections and calculus of nations invested into Pakistan's viability act as a significant buffer, irrespective of India's own capability.

 

[NA71]

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[JamD]

Sir this is impressive thinking but I've given years of my life to this missile program of ours and I can but only *sigh* at the difference b/w expectations and reality.

Long story short, our current industrial base and production capacities are so out of depth that one cant imagine. We can raise another 10 commands and produce 30 more variants of the same 20 yr old missiles. We needed a national emergency effort in which we 10x our defence budget, expanded the industrial base, and took steps to retain talent. Without that, all doctrines are fancy imaginations.

Progress isnt made with wishful thinking. Where is our talent? It's gone abroad. Our main industries (Nescom, NDC, PMO, etc) are horrible at retaining talent bcz of horrible pay packages, vintage environments, and thick bureacratic culture. As a result, your entire strategic program is basically in the hands of uncles from 2002 batches of UET Taxila, UET Peshawar, etc. The entire organizations are infested with UET uncles who never upgraded since they graduated 25 yrs ago. The % of fresh blood is less that 5% and that too with average guys who couldnt leave Pakistan. Where do you think the R&D will come from? These uncles will give you progress? The reality is that we are still producing vintage stuff with new packaging and almost 100% help from China.

I can go on and on but I hope this drives the point that this is regression instead of improvement.

The logic is simple. There's no progress unless you throw huge money, talent and dedicated people at someting.

+1
Extremely spot on!

Pakistan's strategy with this rocket force seems to be conventional deterrence backed up by a veil of secrecy on the numbers. Some theatre. We have no industrial base that can make these systems at any half decent rate. I'd forgive the quality of the R&D if we had numbers - quantity has a quality of its own afterall. But sadly we don't have the industrial base.

If you ask anyone in Pakistan about the level of our industrialization they'll tell you exactly how bad it is. But as soon as you say SPD they suddenly start expecting miracles of secret industries. It's all the same. SPD is in Pakistan and has access to the same industrial capacity and talent as most of the rest of the country. There are no secret underground factories churning out hundreds of baburs (fatah4 excuse me) every year lol.

 

[Ak01]

Sir this is impressive thinking but I've given years of my life to this missile program of ours and I can but only *sigh* at the difference b/w expectations and reality.

Long story short, our current industrial base and production capacities are so out of depth that one cant imagine. We can raise another 10 commands and produce 30 more variants of the same 20 yr old missiles. We needed a national emergency effort in which we 10x our defence budget, expanded the industrial base, and took steps to retain talent. Without that, all doctrines are fancy imaginations.

Progress isnt made with wishful thinking. Where is our talent? It's gone abroad. Our main industries (Nescom, NDC, PMO, etc) are horrible at retaining talent bcz of horrible pay packages, vintage environments, and thick bureacratic culture. As a result, your entire strategic program is basically in the hands of uncles from 2002 batches of UET Taxila, UET Peshawar, etc. The entire organizations are infested with UET uncles who never upgraded since they graduated 25 yrs ago. The % of fresh blood is less that 5% and that too with average guys who couldnt leave Pakistan. Where do you think the R&D will come from? These uncles will give you progress? The reality is that we are still producing vintage stuff with new packaging and almost 100% help from China.

I can go on and on but I hope this drives the point that this is regression instead of improvement.

The logic is simple. There's no progress unless you throw huge money, talent and dedicated people at someting.

+1
Extremely spot on!

Pakistan's strategy with this rocket force seems to be conventional deterrence backed up by a veil of secrecy on the numbers. Some theatre. We have no industrial base that can make these systems at any half decent rate. I'd forgive the quality of the R&D if we had numbers - quantity has a quality of its own afterall. But sadly we don't have the industrial base.

If you ask anyone in Pakistan about the level of our industrialization they'll tell you exactly how bad it is. But as soon as you say SPD they suddenly start expecting miracles of secret industries. It's all the same. SPD is in Pakistan and has access to the same industrial capacity and talent as most of the rest of the country. There are no secret underground factories churning out hundreds of baburs (fatah4 excuses me) every year lol.

 

[Dreamer]

To be merged

Thread should be in Army section anyway....it's a new command (not to mention a brand spanking new Lt. Gen post ) WITHIN the army, isn't it?

 

[Ak01]

Dude you have no experience in defense industry, so fluff ofd those guys are under oath to no never spill anything like your are doing,
I smell an indian

the guy's talking sense btw

 

[Jf Thunder]

and what is the purpose of the Army Strategic Force Command then?

 

[mythbuster]

+1
Extremely spot on!

Pakistan's strategy with this rocket force seems to be conventional deterrence backed up by a veil of secrecy on the numbers. Some theatre. We have no industrial base that can make these systems at any half decent rate. I'd forgive the quality of the R&D if we had numbers - quantity has a quality of its own afterall. But sadly we don't have the industrial base.

If you ask anyone in Pakistan about the level of our industrialization they'll tell you exactly how bad it is. But as soon as you say SPD they suddenly start expecting miracles of secret industries. It's all the same. SPD is in Pakistan and has access to the same industrial capacity and talent as most of the rest of the country. There are no secret underground factories churning out hundreds of baburs (fatah4 excuses me) every year lol.

Mass production is not such a herculean task if you have a decent design and access to advanced materials and few good technicians and machinist who have the capacity to train others... ..all it needs is a good administrative setup and money.

 

[NA71]

and what is the purpose of the Army Strategic Force Command then?

Next level to rocket command....

 

[AeroTech]

+1
Extremely spot on!

Pakistan's strategy with this rocket force seems to be conventional deterrence backed up by a veil of secrecy on the numbers. Some theatre. We have no industrial base that can make these systems at any half decent rate. I'd forgive the quality of the R&D if we had numbers - quantity has a quality of its own afterall. But sadly we don't have the industrial base.

If you ask anyone in Pakistan about the level of our industrialization they'll tell you exactly how bad it is. But as soon as you say SPD they suddenly start expecting miracles of secret industries. It's all the same. SPD is in Pakistan and has access to the same industrial capacity and talent as most of the rest of the country. There are no secret underground factories churning out hundreds of baburs (fatah4 excuses me) every year lol.

This post of yours should be plastered and pinned everywhere on this forum .

The last sentence is in a league of its own

 

[JamD]

Mass production is not such a herculean task if you have a decent design and access to advanced materials and few good technicians and machinist who have the capacity to train others... ..all it needs is a good administrative setup and money.

All of the conditions you listed are absent and thus your premise is wrong - it is a herculean task FOR US. We don't have the industrial inputs ranging from raw materials to parts to components to electronics. We often have to import (read smuggle) these. Smuggling has a huge markup and is not a reliable industrial stream.

Also keep in mind what you are expecting of SPD. You want them to spin up a massive scale assembly line inside a SOE. They are government funded and subsidized. All of the workforce they hire will have to stay there basically for life with pensions and whatnot. And this is under a huge veil of secrecy. Industrial capacity is built within profit making entities that can easily hire from the populace. Not by super secret organizations that are already overstaffed by incompetent officers, office boys, security staff, chefs, and what not who have absolutely no incentive to make a profit and thus be efficient in any way.

 

[Dreamer]

, but when people started to disagree he got personal straight away, which, incidentally,

I will let everyone reading to make up their own minds about what kind of people he is and you are now.

Cheers

Don't know either of you,,,,, but as one of the "everyone reading" , I'm pretty sure it was you guys that started the name calling and not Aero Tech. Infact I don't recall you disagreeing with anything, rather you just started the name calling straight up. And that has been a pattern for some time.

I am not for or against you or any one else.....just saying you need to rethink a bit.

 

[mythbuster]

All of the conditions you listed are absent and thus your premise is wrong - it is a herculean task FOR US. We don't have the industrial inputs ranging from raw materials to parts to components to electronics. We often have to import (read smuggle) these. Smuggling has a huge markup and is not a reliable industrial stream.

Also keep in mind what you are expecting of SPD. You want them to spin up a massive scale assembly line inside a SOE. They are government funded and subsidized. All of the workforce they hire will have to stay there basically for life with pensions and whatnot. And this is under a huge veil of secrecy. Industrial capacity is built within profit making entities that can easily hire from the populace. Not by super secret organizations that are already overstaffed by incompetent officers, office boys, security staff, chefs, and what not who have absolutely no incentive to make a profit and thus be efficient in any way.

I am aware of all the short comings , specifically the ones you mentioned in your second paragraph ....my optimism rests on the induction of new talents ( I know few of them ) ...they are bright and motivated , let's hope they stay the course and don't get discouraged by that despicable lot at the top.

 

[JamD]

I am aware of all the short comings , specifically the ones you mentioned in your second paragraph ....my optimism rests on the induction of new talents ( I know few of them ) ...they are bright and motivated , let's hope they stay the course and don't get discouraged by that despicable lot at the top.

Umeed pe dunya qaem hai

 

[Oscar]

I'm sure there are external actors other than Pakistan who have an interest in certain issues within Indian not being solved.

To that extent, the various interconnections and calculus of nations invested into Pakistan's viability act as a significant buffer, irrespective of India's own capability.

Push comes to shove those actors will never provide military support.