Pakistan Missiles - Updates, News & Discussion

[kimjongun]

If you're talking about Mansoor the nuclear history researcher, he's already agreed, will come in Season 2 though due to prep and scheduling.

I'm down with bringing A Haseeb, but I don't have a way to get in touch with him.

he was active on the indian forum(strategic frontier) a while back while i was crolling through it...but i think older members most probably can get you in touch with him...
Also souldn't there be a proper osint thread for indian military/stategic sites like there was on oldpdf....i have some info on them like morkie,jalhandr,jodhpur etc i would love to know more of them

 

[kimjongun]

Yes, that's why I said there is no way DF-17 is coming to Pakistan. We'll get the tech and either build it ourselves, or, indigenize a lower range weapon system like the Tayfun and later expand the range. The range should be easy part as we have a very established missile program for decades.

Tayfun is basically like a iskander type missile....our ghaznavi would do the job exactly like it IMO...there are chinese alternatives like the df12 or even ukranian grom....btw why cant we refer to North korea now in terms of missile tech...they did gave us nodong blueprints by which we made Ghauri ....i think we should see that way cuz north korean missile tech is way better then india tbh

 

[RajaBaja]

Tayfun is basically like a iskander type missile....our ghaznavi would do the job exactly like it IMO...there are chinese alternatives like the df12 or even ukranian grom....btw why cant we refer to North korea now in terms of missile tech...they did gave us nodong blueprints by which we made Ghauri ....i think we should see that way cuz north korean missile tech is way better then india tbhView attachment 142147

We aren't concerned with missiles, or even Tayfun as a missile. The only interest we have is acquiring or building HGV tech. We have plenty of missile platforms to convert into HGV booster.

 

[Bilal]

I'm down with bring the deterrent, but I don't have a way to get in touch with him.

Yeah, he disappeared even in old PDF.

Great to hear we will get to hear from Deterrant.

 

[Venom]

That would be very interesting, as well inviting some ex-service personnel, like Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail. Maybe even Alan Warnes!?

@Quwa, incidentally, I remember what happened to you on the old PakDef forum regarding the topic of Türkiye, goes to show how things have changed, but how mindsets are more difficult to change.

Yes I remember that argument with H Khan. HK was unnecessarily aggressive for no reason, and Faisal or Bilal I think turned out to be correct in the end.

 

[falcon34]

@Bilal this is what I was alluding to these are the posts of the deterrent from the old PDF. He even goes on to say we designed the guidance system, to the attitude control system to the terminal correction system in pak, this what got me confused cause saw the posts of JamD, Oscar and aero guy, they were all gloomy. Like we don't even make 20% of the missiles stuff in pak, previously I put the number of pak missiles such as CMs and BMs in a few thousand (2k) cause I based that estimate on deterrents analysis, mean like u and many of us are from the old PDF, for me his analysis was benchmark to draw any conclusion.
But tbh it really is sad and depressing we had solid missile base where we had the capability to design and manufacture Solid fuel missiles (based on deterrents analysis), Supposedly a MARV that used thrusters rather than wings in 2006!!! that's crazy and now today we are still stuck there and look at Iranians nikkas didn't had a solid fuel missile back than now they possess systems like the Fattah 1 and KS 1&2.
Whoever stopped the evolution of our BMs and thought Shaheen series would be enough to counter indians, I hope that fat ass generals suffers, we had a solid start, had the development kept on going we could have at least reach the DF-17 type of HGV by now.
Irony is we don't have an HGV or glider like KS, can't compare ourselves to fluffing Persians.
But there is hope tbh if initially they start pumping out Shaheen series for conventional role that would more than enough they got the speed, the PBV and the MARV to just get the job done.
@Panzerkiel what stopped our missile program, false sense of security or just the usual south Asian incompetencey.

 

[falcon34]

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@Bilal this is what I was alluding to these are the posts of the deterrent from the old PDF. He even goes on to say we designed the guidance system, to the attitude control system to the terminal correction system in pak, this what got me confused cause saw the posts of JamD, Oscar and aero guy, they were all gloomy. Like we don't even make 20% of the missiles stuff in pak, previously I put the number of pak missiles such as CMs and BMs in a few thousand (2k) cause I based that estimate on deterrents analysis, mean like u and many of us are from the old PDF, for me his analysis was benchmark to draw any conclusion.
But tbh it really is sad and depressing we had solid missile base where we had the capability to design and manufacture Solid fuel missiles (based on deterrents analysis), Supposedly a MARV that used thrusters rather than wings in 2006!!! that's crazy and now today we are still stuck there and look at Iranians nikkas didn't had a solid fuel missile back than now they possess systems like the Fattah 1 and KS 1&2.
Whoever stopped the evolution of our BMs and thought Shaheen series would be enough to counter indians, I hope that fat ass generals suffers, we had a solid start, had the development kept on going we could have at least reach the DF-17 type of HGV by now.
Irony is we don't have an HGV or glider like KS, can't compare ourselves to fluffing Persians.
But there is hope tbh if initially they start pumping out Shaheen series for conventional role that would more than enough they got the speed, the PBV and the MARV to just get the job done.
@Panzerkiel what stopped our missile program, false sense of security or just the usual south Asian incompetencey.

 

[RandomThoughts7]

Hi, this is more an FYI... Pakistan needs to invest heavily in this field and/or purchase the technology to get a jump start.

The hypersonic missiles race is heating up but the West is behind

Russia and China are leading the global race in hypersonic missiles - how worried should we be that the US is playing catch up and the UK has none?

www.bbc.com

 

[Saifullah]

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@Bilal this is what I was alluding to these are the posts of the deterrent from the old PDF. He even goes on to say we designed the guidance system, to the attitude control system to the terminal correction system in pak, this what got me confused cause saw the posts of JamD, Oscar and aero guy, they were all gloomy. Like we don't even make 20% of the missiles stuff in pak, previously I put the number of pak missiles such as CMs and BMs in a few thousand (2k) cause I based that estimate on deterrents analysis, mean like u and many of us are from the old PDF, for me his analysis was benchmark to draw any conclusion.
But tbh it really is sad and depressing we had solid missile base where we had the capability to design and manufacture Solid fuel missiles (based on deterrents analysis), Supposedly a MARV that used thrusters rather than wings in 2006!!! that's crazy and now today we are still stuck there and look at Iranians nikkas didn't had a solid fuel missile back than now they possess systems like the Fattah 1 and KS 1&2.
Whoever stopped the evolution of our BMs and thought Shaheen series would be enough to counter indians, I hope that fat ass generals suffers, we had a solid start, had the development kept on going we could have at least reach the DF-17 type of HGV by now.
Irony is we don't have an HGV or glider like KS, can't compare ourselves to fluffing Persians.
But there is hope tbh if initially they start pumping out Shaheen series for conventional role that would more than enough they got the speed, the PBV and the MARV to just get the job done.
@Panzerkiel what stopped our missile program, false sense of security or just the usual south Asian incompetencey.

I think they mean it could be indigenously designed, developed, and assembled with imported materials and subcomponents?

 

[Michael]

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@Bilal this is what I was alluding to these are the posts of the deterrent from the old PDF. He even goes on to say we designed the guidance system, to the attitude control system to the terminal correction system in pak, this what got me confused cause saw the posts of JamD, Oscar and aero guy, they were all gloomy. Like we don't even make 20% of the missiles stuff in pak, previously I put the number of pak missiles such as CMs and BMs in a few thousand (2k) cause I based that estimate on deterrents analysis, mean like u and many of us are from the old PDF, for me his analysis was benchmark to draw any conclusion.
But tbh it really is sad and depressing we had solid missile base where we had the capability to design and manufacture Solid fuel missiles (based on deterrents analysis), Supposedly a MARV that used thrusters rather than wings in 2006!!! that's crazy and now today we are still stuck there and look at Iranians nikkas didn't had a solid fuel missile back than now they possess systems like the Fattah 1 and KS 1&2.
Whoever stopped the evolution of our BMs and thought Shaheen series would be enough to counter indians, I hope that fat ass generals suffers, we had a solid start, had the development kept on going we could have at least reach the DF-17 type of HGV by now.
Irony is we don't have an HGV or glider like KS, can't compare ourselves to fluffing Persians.
But there is hope tbh if initially they start pumping out Shaheen series for conventional role that would more than enough they got the speed, the PBV and the MARV to just get the job done.
@Panzerkiel what stopped our missile program, false sense of security or just the usual south Asian incompetencey.

I completely understand how you feel.
You have always wanted to prove that “Pakistan can manufacture ballistic missiles 100% domestically.”

I really don't want to refute your point of view.
So, here's a suggestion for you.

You could try using AI. Ask the AI about the “conditions for 100% domestically produced ballistic missiles.” Then, delve deeper into each condition and gain a thorough understanding of the knowledge involved. After that, you can compare this knowledge with Pakistan's current reality.
You will arrive at the correct answer.

Reality is cruel. But we cannot pretend it does not exist.

 

[Oscar]

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@Bilal this is what I was alluding to these are the posts of the deterrent from the old PDF. He even goes on to say we designed the guidance system, to the attitude control system to the terminal correction system in pak, this what got me confused cause saw the posts of JamD, Oscar and aero guy, they were all gloomy. Like we don't even make 20% of the missiles stuff in pak, previously I put the number of pak missiles such as CMs and BMs in a few thousand (2k) cause I based that estimate on deterrents analysis, mean like u and many of us are from the old PDF, for me his analysis was benchmark to draw any conclusion.
But tbh it really is sad and depressing we had solid missile base where we had the capability to design and manufacture Solid fuel missiles (based on deterrents analysis), Supposedly a MARV that used thrusters rather than wings in 2006!!! that's crazy and now today we are still stuck there and look at Iranians nikkas didn't had a solid fuel missile back than now they possess systems like the Fattah 1 and KS 1&2.
Whoever stopped the evolution of our BMs and thought Shaheen series would be enough to counter indians, I hope that fat ass generals suffers, we had a solid start, had the development kept on going we could have at least reach the DF-17 type of HGV by now.
Irony is we don't have an HGV or glider like KS, can't compare ourselves to fluffing Persians.
But there is hope tbh if initially they start pumping out Shaheen series for conventional role that would more than enough they got the speed, the PBV and the MARV to just get the job done.
@Panzerkiel what stopped our missile program, false sense of security or just the usual south Asian incompetencey.

You are assuming gloom at conditions of R&D versus achievements based on 20% competence.

Shaheen series story I sat across Dr SM and asked and it was basically nuclear scientists finding books ok rocketry and learning delivery systems.

Guidance was in house - to the point guidance for babur is in house and I still have in a ssd the first iteration of the code / built for a TI floating point DSP + FPGA combo.

Guidance then for all series is in house - chipset design is in house. It is sent to China to manufacture and then assembled in Pakistan.

That isn’t the issue - the issue is that where there was great opportunity to make advances in other parts of systems design and otherwise it so happens either vested interest or plain incompetence by someone appointed unqualified leads to things being left out.

This applies to everything from engine metallurgy to propellant to MIRV bus design.
But there is progress in other areas
Coatings
Evasive technologies
Decoys

How much is actually implemented is anyone’s guess.

But, there are a lot of squandered opportunities which is where is gloom

And I don’t assume malice where plain incompetence will suffice

 

[kimjongun]

You are assuming gloom at conditions of R&D versus achievements based on 20% competence.

Shaheen series story I sat across Dr SM and asked and it was basically nuclear scientists finding books ok rocketry and learning delivery systems.

Guidance was in house - to the point guidance for babur is in house and I still have in a ssd the first iteration of the code / built for a TI floating point DSP + FPGA combo.

Guidance then for all series is in house - chipset design is in house. It is sent to China to manufacture and then assembled in Pakistan.

That isn’t the issue - the issue is that where there was great opportunity to make advances in other parts of systems design and otherwise it so happens either vested interest or plain incompetence by someone appointed unqualified leads to things being left out.

This applies to everything from engine metallurgy to propellant to MIRV bus design.
But there is progress in other areas
Coatings
Evasive technologies
Decoys

How much is actually implemented is anyone’s guess.

But, there are a lot of squandered opportunities which is where is gloom

And I don’t assume malice where plain incompetence will suffice

Knowing the guidance of all things is inhouse is a very great thing to hear....i hope we have developped the propellents or even the motors in house....there are sat imagery showing test stands but not that much evidence(i havent found much)...in 1996 multiple shipments of amonium perchlorate(an oxidizer for solid propellent)was caught by taiwan coming from north korea on its way to Pakistan...so i wish that we are developing amonium perchlorate here after those stopgapes....india has invested heavily into propellent and composite structures for its missiles...credit goes to their ISRO...this is why they have been able to achive longer ranges with smaller size missiles due to the higher performance of their propellents...
By watching newer launches of missiles like the fatah series or others i am half sure we are making our own motors although it is very easy for us to import motors from china(composite ones) like from companies like CHINA HEXI CHEMICAL & MECHANICAL COMPANY...
.
I have always wondered why haven't we gone back to north korea for our missile program...like we did with ghauri sahab...they are farbetter then us in r&d and have a large chemical and engeneering base for this process...IMO gaining missile tech from north korea would be easier then gaining them from china cuz of all the eys that watch our every relation or talks with china...

 

[Dalit]

Knowing the guidance of all things is inhouse is a very great thing to hear....i hope we have developped the propellents or even the motors in house....there are sat imagery showing test stands but not that much evidence(i havent found much)...in 1996 multiple shipments of amonium perchlorate(an oxidizer for solid propellent)was caught by taiwan coming from north korea on its way to Pakistan...so i wish that we are developing amonium perchlorate here after those stopgapes....india has invested heavily into propellent and composite structures for its missiles...credit goes to their ISRO...this is why they have been able to achive longer ranges with smaller size missiles due to the higher performance of their propellents...
By watching newer launches of missiles like the fatah series or others i am half sure we are making our own motors although it is very easy for us to import motors from china(composite ones) like from companies like CHINA HEXI CHEMICAL & MECHANICAL COMPANY...
.View attachment 142256
I have always wondered why haven't we gone back to north korea for our missile program...like we did with ghauri sahab...they are farbetter then us in r&d and have a large chemical and engeneering base for this process...IMO gaining missile tech from north korea would be easier then gaining them from china cuz of all the eys that watch our every relation or talks with china...

The supposed missile tech that North Korea provides also comes with Chinese consent. There is no doubt that Pakistan is lacking in the missile area, but that shouldn't come as a surprise. When you don't invest in education for the masses only so much can be achieved. I have said it a dozen times in the past. Pakistan is lucky to have China as defence supplier.

The Indian/Hindutva intellectuals have analysed the Sindoor operation quite well. India isn't fighting Pakistan alone. When fighting Pakistan, India is also fighting against China.

 

[Michael]

The supposed missile tech that North Korea provides also comes with Chinese consent.

The DPRK's military technology and weapons are largely derived from the Soviet Union/Russia, with a smaller portion coming from China.

If both China and Russia disagree with Pakistan possessing a certain technology, Pakistan's direct approach to North Korea will yield no results. The DPRK will play a good intermediary role only when China or Russia agrees to transfer a certain technology to Pakistan but is not convenient to transfer the technology directly. ------For example, certain technologies that involve violations of the MTCR.

 

[RajaBaja]

View attachment 142185

Pakistan has two types of strategic missiles. 1: Liquid fuel and 2: Solid fuel.

1: Ghauri series liquid fuel tech has influence from North Korea.
2: Solid Fuel: This tech is attributed to Chinese Silkworm missile and other missile series.

Pakistan had gained experience through Ghauri missile development and had setup an industrial base for parts manufacturing locally. A separate team focused on Solid Fuel combustion and associated more advanced Chinese tech. That lead to Shaheen series missile program.

Our cruise missiles are essentially US tech derivatives. When Clinton ordered Tomahawk missile attack on Afghanistan, some of the 500 missiles fell in Pakistani airspace and Pakistan reverse engineered those and added some newer Chinese tech into those.

We've made some impressive progress in military weapons building with our limited economy. Keeping an enemy 3 times bigger at bay with defense budget gap of $ 6 to 80 billion is nothing short of impressive.

As our economy grows, more money will be put into R&D in advanced technologies. No reason why in next 10-15 years, we can't compete with South Korea and Turkey in some military products.

What would make me proud is when we design, even with TOT, a local HIMAD system. That day is far, but it's that day to be proud of.