PAF SAM based Air Defense System - News, Discussion & Updates

[Bentley777]

A question for the more seasoned analysts here. How did the HQ-9 really perform? And how many brahmos and scalp volleys did we really face?

Pak air defense environment concept was relatively new it will mature more over time more batteries and systems needs to be inducted also a home grown short range ADS needs to be operationalized.

 

[Metal 0-1]

How many brahmos were launched per base again?

 

[kimjongun]

How many brahmos were launched per base again?

i think 6 but could be wrong

 

[side-winder]

A question for the more seasoned analysts here. How did the HQ-9 really perform? And how many brahmos and scalp volleys did we really face?

The exact answer to first part is SECRET in nature including what intercepted what - how many soft kills - how many hard kills. Right now it's a mystery for Indians and we intend to keep it that way.

The second part has already been answered. The actual number on 10th was not more than 30-35. The claims of "hundreds" by Pakistanis and "12-15 with 90% success" by indians is totally wrong.

i think 6 but could be wrong

Wrong. The number is variable for different bases. 03 bases shared same number though.

 

[Oscar]

A question for the more seasoned analysts here. How did the HQ-9 really perform? And how many brahmos and scalp volleys did we really face?

Depends on the seasoning - there are the Shan masala variety, National fans, some laziza guys and then there are the ones who sat on the chakki to make it like @side-winder and @Panzerkiel.

Problem is we also have the 1-2 MDH masala ones and then even the lazy Patakh jar “just add meat or veggies” type category here too.

But the HQ-9 performance was more a case of holding off on letting the emissions picked off for the site because once you reveal it then you need to move it.
It scored one kill of a Brahmos - and scalp usage was very surgical - maybe 6-9max but Brahmos the indians did throw liberally.

 

[Panzerkiel]

A question for the more seasoned analysts here. How did the HQ-9 really perform? And how many brahmos and scalp volleys did we really face?

Suggest we wait one odd month or more... Things are still going on ... If we start discussing real tactics here, then the vulnerabilities will be identified and catered for in the next strike.

 

[Mohid Afzal]

Suggest we wait one odd month or more... Things are still going on ... If we start discussing real tactics here, then the vulnerabilities will be identified and catered for on the next strike.

A question Sir, any progress on the locally made LOMADS and FAAZ-SL SAM systems?

 

[RajaBaja]

i think 6 but could be wrong

6 is not even 10% of what was launched. A precise number remains confidential. But near hundred were launched.

Someone asked about HQ-9. The time it was kept on, was little. The barrages of drones had sensitive emission trackers on it and they were specifically looking for these super expensive weapons system. Not only they will attack the source of higher power radio waves, they would real time provide location back including camera feed. On which, Brahmos will follow within a 2-4 minute window depending on the distance. You can't move so many large trucks in 2-4 minutes. Thus, they were kept off during drone attacks. The time they were on, they did their job 80-85%, that's also become the global standard.

 

[rafale]

6 is not even 10% of what was launched. A precise number remains confidential. But near hundred were launched.

Someone asked about HQ-9. The time it was kept on, was little. The barrages of drones had sensitive emission trackers on it and they were specifically looking for these super expensive weapons system. Not only they will attack the source of higher power radio waves, they would real time provide location back including camera feed. On which, Brahmos will follow within a 2-4 minute window depending on the distance. You can't move so many large trucks in 2-4 minutes. Thus, they were kept off during drone attacks. The time they were on, they did their job 80-85%, that's also become the global standard.

This is a challenge and a very present and clear one.....where you need effective and fast air defense for your main air defense.

Drones being cheaper and can stream live video/data at short distances (50-150km) means that in any future conflict India will rely on them more and more.

need an effective solution where these are shot down right at the border.

 

[RajaBaja]

This is a challenge and a very present and clear one.....where you need effective and fast air defense for your main air defense.

Drones being cheaper and can stream live video/data at short distances (50-150km) means that in any future conflict India will rely on them more and more.

need an effective solution where these are shot down right at the border.

Agreed. They are working on some solution. I think the solution to this includes:
1) Pakistan needs to mass produce a SAM system locally to make a cost effective system, and install a first layer of mobile SAMs close to the border (say within 50 KM or slightly more).

Pakistan was working on FAAZ-2, which was an air to air weapon. Like NASAMS based on AMRAAM, a ground version of FAAZ should be introduced in parallel.

2) Certain Chinese system to be acquired that are based on Russian Buk, TOT is important here. These are cheap systems and last I checked, come with micro SAM's like 48 of them and a Gatling gun for short range drone swarms, helo's, cruise missiles, etc.

The real solution will have 3 layers of SAMs,
1: LOMAD layer 1: Mobile Shoot and Scoot systems: Within 50 KM of the border so any cruise missiles, drone swarms, or jets can be targeted at or around the border vs. deep inside Pakistan.
2: HIMADs - Strategic systems like HQ-19 and HQ-9B (HQ-9B to be upgraded to HQ-9C standard). For ballistics and hypersonic missile defense.
3: LOMADS layer II: At critical installations and around major cities for local area protection.

 

[gamaji]

Suggest we wait one odd month or more... Things are still going on ... If we start discussing real tactics here, then the vulnerabilities will be identified and catered for on the next strike.

However, revealing some details of Pak’s strikes on Indian targets might not be harmful, but rather useful, to Pakistan. The chances of Modi committing another aggression against Pak are very slim.

Given the strong position that Pakistan has taken since Pahalgam false flag terrorist attack and the bleak Indian position at diplomatic front, Indians, I believe, are not even in a position to announce/stage another military exercise at Pakistan's border. The way Indians kept a low profile during their last announced exercises (Notam for 19-21 August) at Pakistan's borders is indicative of their falling moral and realization of the futility of such gimmicks.

Now with Modi’s steam already punctured out and his ego effectively smashed, revealing more details of Pakistani strikes on to Indian targets would only humiliate Modi even more. Given the high-stake elections in some Indians states approaching fast, such revelations will certainly have devastating effects on RSS election campaigns in there (unless Pak really wants Modi still keep lingering on for some time).

 

[Tomcats]

One thing I found interesting is the interception rates at Rafiqui, I'm fairly sure that was one base that was heavily targeted yet we have not seen any hits yet. I'm curious what was different at Rafique that the AD was able to achieve a seemingly higher interception rate there compared to everywhere else.

That could change though since India is on an information releasing spree and is is publishing new footage of their strikes weekly...

 

[Toxic]

One thing I found interesting is the interception rates at Rafiqui, I'm fairly sure that was one base that was heavily targeted yet we have not seen any hits yet. I'm curious what was different at Rafique that the AD was able to achieve a seemingly higher interception rate there compared to everywhere else.

That could change though since India is on an information releasing spree and is is publishing new footage of their strikes weekly...

I have seen their new footage and it seems to be just different pictures of the same sites, Rafiqui wasn't hit at all.

 

[Tomcats]

I have seen their new footage and it seems to be just different pictures of the same sites, Rafiqui wasn't hit at all.

A Radar (seemingly a TPS-77) and an airfield support building in Jacobabad being hit is new footage I believe.

 

[Toxic]

A Radar (seemingly a TPS-77) and an airfield support building in Jacobabad being hit is new footage I believe.

I have seen that radar and it doesn't look destroyed to me there are no burn marks or craters that would be caused by a large missile like the rampage it could be just a another case of a them claiming shadows as supposed damage like at chunian or pasroor @side-winder can tell us more.