India to develop with France engine for desi stealth fighter

[r3alist]

I remember we had a certain lively discussion about the prospects of a Turkish indigenous fighter jet program, and the Indians felt the Turks were far behind them and technologically inferior

 

[Blain2]

Safran is developing the NEW Generation Fighter Engine with MTU of Germany

That is where the real tech will be and no way French and Germans sharing any of it.

This is the crux of the issue. The TF engine technology is one of the most closely guarded secrets in the West, Russia and China.

French will gladly sell them engines in SKD/FKD kits to be assembled (like the MKI engines) in India for the "Atmanirbhar Bharat" sloganeering, but that is it.

That means potential risk of hold-back, sanctions, lack of supply-chain will remain real problems for them in the future as well.

 

[Yasser76]

This is the crux of the issue. The TF engine technology is one of the most closely guarded secrets in the West, Russia and China.

French will gladly sell them engines in SKD/FKD kits to be assembled (like the MKI engines) in India for the "Atmanirbhar Bharat" sloganeering, but that is it.

That means potential risk of hold-back, sanctions, lack of supply-chain will remain real problems for them in the future as well.

Exactly, will not stop the clowns from proclaiming "Game Changer!" though....

 

[ThoroughPro]

Exactly, will not stop the clowns from proclaiming "Game Changer!" though....

Another "Turck ki Batti" for the next 10 years. I am happy for them to waste time and money on failure projects.

 

[chinasun]

Engine technology is the crown jewel of manufacturing; mastering fifth-generation fighter engine technology marks a nation's ascent to the world's top tier of industrial powers. In short, it cannot be bought or copied. It requires decades of sustained investment in basic science, engineering, industrial chains, and capital. Thus, whether a country can master this technology has become the gold standard for judging whether it possesses a globally leading, self-reliant manufacturing system. The "complete technology transfer" touted by Indian media is mere marketing rhetoric; in essence, it is limited subcontracting under tightly controlled technical services.

 

[Michael]

This is the crux of the issue. The TF engine technology is one of the most closely guarded secrets in the West, Russia and China.

French will gladly sell them engines in SKD/FKD kits to be assembled (like the MKI engines) in India for the "Atmanirbhar Bharat" sloganeering, but that is it.

That means potential risk of hold-back, sanctions, lack of supply-chain will remain real problems for them in the future as well.

The key question is "Based on what criteria will local manufacturing be judged?"

I know how to use machining machines; I can easily purchase various types of steel in the market; I can download blueprints for various firearms from the internet; I can prepare explosive chemicals.
Ignoring Chinese legal restrictions, I can manufacture any rifle. My rifles may be inaccurate and inadequate; they may break after a few rounds... but I do make them completely in-house.
Based on Indian standards, I manufacture my rifles 100% domestically. Just like many Indians now believe that the iPhone is a 100% made in India product.

=============================================

Modern turbofan engines can be divided into two parts.
1. The core engine. Its principles and structure are completely public. All turbofan engines worldwide share the same concept. They differ in the number of air compression stages and blade counts, but this information is publicly available.
However, their processing techniques, material handling, and material formulations are absolutely confidential. Furthermore, even with this knowledge, manufacturing them would require a massive investment.
This is clearly not something India can achieve.
2. Engine accessories. This includes all engine control components. In particular, the chips within the control system cannot be reverse engineered. This is similar to reverse engineering the chip in an iPhone.
This is clearly not something India can achieve either.

 

[TopGun786]

The key question is "Based on what criteria will local manufacturing be judged?"

I know how to use machining machines; I can easily purchase various types of steel in the market; I can download blueprints for various firearms from the internet; I can prepare explosive chemicals.
Ignoring Chinese legal restrictions, I can manufacture any rifle. My rifles may be inaccurate and inadequate; they may break after a few rounds... but I do make them completely in-house.
Based on Indian standards, I manufacture my rifles 100% domestically. Just like many Indians now believe that the iPhone is a 100% made in India product.

=============================================

Modern turbofan engines can be divided into two parts.
1. The core engine. Its principles and structure are completely public. All turbofan engines worldwide share the same concept. They differ in the number of air compression stages and blade counts, but this information is publicly available.
However, their processing techniques, material handling, and material formulations are absolutely confidential. Furthermore, even with this knowledge, manufacturing them would require a massive investment.
This is clearly not something India can achieve.
2. Engine accessories. This includes all engine control components. In particular, the chips within the control system cannot be reverse engineered. This is similar to reverse engineering the chip in an iPhone.
This is clearly not something India can achieve either.

With time you will get new revelations about Indian mindset and their bollywood dreams.
Apparently according to multiple Indian posters even on this defense forum (not talking about countless Indian trolls on other internet platforms) India, Taiwan and USA are actively studying fragments of PL-15E Pakistan used against India recently. According to these posters soon India, Taiwan and USA will be able to get all information and to counter this missile in future..... and possibly also reverse engineer it.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Just another dry humping.

 

[MH.Yang]

With time you will get new revelations about Indian mindset and their bollywood dreams.
Apparently according to multiple Indian posters even on this defense forum (not talking about countless Indian trolls on other internet platforms) India, Taiwan and USA are actively studying fragments of PL-15E Pakistan used against India recently. According to these posters soon India, Taiwan and USA will be able to get all information and to counter this missile in future..... and possibly also reverse engineer it.

Such studies don't make much sense.

China is so far ahead in the field of material science that it is bound to maintain its advantage in the field of missile range for a long time. This advantage from basic science cannot be compensated by design solutions.

 

[BonPlan]

Good luck with this one too

Indeed.
It is a never ending story.
One team GE, another PW, then R&R, now SAFRAN..... As no formal bid has been inked it is time to wait and see.

 

[BonPlan]

Does France need India to help it make a engine?????

Maybe the title should be, India pays out of its nose for France to build it a engine.

No.
I see an attempt to merge the indian AMCA engine and the european SCAF / FCAS one.
The 2 are in the 12 to 13 tons range (not very clear how heavy could be SCAF) so a scale effect production may be interesting to cut the unit price of each engine.

 

[BonPlan]

India, Taiwan and USA are actively studying fragments of PL-15E Pakistan used against India recently. According to these posters soon India, Taiwan and USA will be able to get all information and to counter this missile in future..... and possibly also reverse engineer it.

It is not the whole PL-15 that is interesting, it is the seeker, the data link, the fuse....
The rest of the missile is absolutely uninteresting. A classical powder motor on a classical designed frame.
But the seeker and data links are jewels.

 

[Fatman17]

Indeed.
It is a never ending story.
One team GE, another PW, then R&R, now SAFRAN..... As no formal bid has been inked it is time to wait and see.

Indeed

 

[Yasser76]

It is not the whole PL-15 that is interesting, it is the seeker, the data link, the fuse....
The rest of the missile is absolutely uninteresting. A classical powder motor on a classical designed frame.
But the seeker and data links are jewels.

So the most technical bits of the PL-15 are "interesting".

You need to make up your mind, and remember all that "interesting" stuff is over 10 years old now

 

[Corax]

India had three main options for developing its aircraft engine in partnership with other countries:

1. USA – Relying on the US for such a critical project is risky. Washington is unlikely to allow full transfer of technology, which would keep India dependent.

2. Russia – Easier access and cheaper collaboration are possible with Russia. However, when it comes to advanced engine technology, the EU and Western nations are generally one step ahead. Choosing Russia and others, may mean lower costs but also compromises in quality.

3. France – France represents the most balanced and practical option. If India can negotiate the right deal, it could gain access to one of the best engines available today, with far fewer political strings attached.

India and France already have a history of cooperation, including successful joint work on helicopter engines. Safran has committed to a complete transfer of technology for India’s AMCA program, giving Indian agencies access to advanced design expertise, manufacturing processes, and full intellectual property (IP) rights.

What happened to "indigenous"? The tejus is no different to the JF17, it's a systems integration project, with key components sourced externally, airframe designed by Dassault, FCS by Lockheed, Israeli radar and avionics, you even had to get the radome made by Cobham in the UK because it was interfering with the radar.