PTI News, Updates and Discussion

[Tamerlane]

Also, the 'elected PM' ceases to be 'elected' once a successful NCM is passed, however shady the moves behind the scenes were.

Did you notice what you just wrote? It’s all good “however shady the moves behind the scenes were.”

Pakistan is the only British style parliamentary democracy that has a term for horse trading. It’s called ‘Changa Manga Politics.”

The army or their favorite politicians kidnap politicians and offer them money or face dire consequences unless they vote as demanded. This is thuggery, not democracy.

Changa Manga Politics

Political horse-trading, the unethical practice of buying and selling lawmakers’ loyalties, has been a persistent feature of Pakistani politics. While this phenomenon exists in many parts of the world, it has become particularly notorious in Pakistan, where it has been institutionalized through secret dealings, financial incentives, and coercion.

Changa Manga Politics

A History of Political Horse-Trading in Pakistan

brief.pk

 

[313Ghazi]

Strange that those like you living in the UK and in Canada don't know how the Parliamentary democracy works: Once an NCM is tabled, no dissolution of the assemblies, no calls for 'early elections'. Imran had both options available but, behind the scene, he was begging Bajwa to keep Imran in power by continuing to coerce the likes of MQM--who had publicly stated right after the 2018 elections that they were forced to join hands with Imran.
I am stating facts here which you guys can't deny. It sure dents the democratic credentials of the benchmarks you guys have set for Imran all too focused around the 2024 elections but that's something too bitter for you to swallow.
Also, the 'elected PM' ceases to be 'elected' once a successful NCM is passed, however shady the moves behind the scenes were. Benazir Bhutto faced far worse odds in 1989 but didn't back out of the NCM.
Imran Khan is a coward of highest order who couldn't even face a routine Parliamentary democracy move and yet you and another above you, both living in Parliamentary democratic countries, coming up with excuses for Imran's outright violations of even the basics of democracy??
Pakistan is such a soft, stupid State otherwise it was an open and shut case of 'high treason' when Imran, his Speaker and his President violated the Const. of Pakistan by throwing out the NCM because allegedly America was behind Imran's toppling.

I don't even know why this is even debatable?!! Even Indians here know exactly what I am trying to say.

Your blind to your own hypocrisy. Throwing around words like treason whilst cheerleading military dictators.

Also if it was treason why wasnt anyone tried for it? At most it could be termed parliamentary misconduct if that. It was a legally debatable move.

As for VONC in the UK, we are not a banana republic where such events occur. The last instances were 1979 and 1923. Its unheard of. We also dont know the names of the head of the military and certainly don't have thier faces plastered everywhere.

 

[Yousafzai_M]

If I had to choose between Imran Khan and Muneera to lead the country, my choice would still be the same as it has always been!

 

[Forsvaret]

If I had to choose between Imran Khan and Muneera to lead the country, my choice would still be the same as it has always been!

Imran Khan is an elected leader. Muneera is an usurper, ruling over Pakistan with brute force. There is no choice here.

 

[Yousafzai_M]

Imran Khan is an elected leader. Muneera is an usurper, ruling over Pakistan with brute force. There is no choice here.

I know! my point was in reference to all the Patwaris going Imran Khan bad, Muneera good.

 

[PakAl]

Strange that those like you living in the UK and in Canada don't know how the Parliamentary democracy works: Once an NCM is tabled, no dissolution of the assemblies, no calls for 'early elections'. Imran had both options available but, behind the scene, he was begging Bajwa to keep Imran in power by continuing to coerce the likes of MQM--who had publicly stated right after the 2018 elections that they were forced to join hands with Imran.
I am stating facts here which you guys can't deny. It sure dents the democratic credentials of the benchmarks you guys have set for Imran all too focused around the 2024 elections but that's something too bitter for you to swallow.
Also, the 'elected PM' ceases to be 'elected' once a successful NCM is passed, however shady the moves behind the scenes were. Benazir Bhutto faced far worse odds in 1989 but didn't back out of the NCM.
Imran Khan is a coward of highest order who couldn't even face a routine Parliamentary democracy move and yet you and another above you, both living in Parliamentary democratic countries, coming up with excuses for Imran's outright violations of even the basics of democracy??
Pakistan is such a soft, stupid State otherwise it was an open and shut case of 'high treason' when Imran, his Speaker and his President violated the Const. of Pakistan by throwing out the NCM because allegedly America was behind Imran's toppling.

I don't even know why this is even debatable?!! Even Indians here know exactly what I am trying to say.

This is definitely Imran Khan error, he was told by Sheikh Rasheed, an experienced politician to resign from assemblies and go for elections since Imran Khan will be trapped if NCM is tabled in the assemblies, he did not listen. Sheikh Rasheed knew PTI lost the majority due to Pmlq, Mqm, Bap changing sides and 30 MNAs planned on switching over, remember Aleem Khan and Jahangir Tahreen were already out of Pti and waiting for their chance.

The same way after IK removal, IK was told by Pervez Ellahi to sit in the opposition and not resign from opposition, Punjab and Kpk assemblies since Pti will be eaten by the wolves, IK did not listen and we know what happened next. Today IK is in jail but Pti is sitting in opposition, aswell as KpK assembly. They learnt their lesson.

The same way all this anti establishment, army narrative will fail, IK himself used to say we need to respect armed forces and work with them. Pakistan comes first, leaders come and go, generals come and go. Ofcourse no doubt trampling on the constitution and break every single law is unacceptable but IK PTI trapped the establishment, they were done and only way to come back was through force. In my opinion it's a big failure. If we our military was weak we would have been the next Syria and Libya but they allowed the situation to reach this level is also a failure.

 

[Meengla]

Did you notice what you just wrote? It’s all good “however shady the moves behind the scenes were.”

Pakistan is the only British style parliamentary democracy that has a term for horse trading. It’s called ‘Changa Manga Politics.”

Also if it was treason why wasnt anyone tried for it? At most it could be termed parliamentary misconduct if that. It was a legally debatable move.

The NCM, in the highest traditions of the 3rd world countries, was indeed a result of backdoor moves. Such moves happen all the time especially in poor countries. Even in more established Parliamentary democracies or even in case of America, various leaders pull strings to try to get enough 'votes'. And NCMs were also tabled in Pakistan before. Benazir had faced a lot worse odds than Imran but she knew she had to follow through. Shaukat Aziz was himself an Establishment guy but he too had to face an NCM. If any PM just makes up excuses to get out of the NCM votes then the whole system loses whatever credibility is left in it.
When will you guys realize that once an NCM is tabled, there is no dissolving the Assemblies and no Early Elections. If you read Dawn from early 2022, Imran was advised to follow those two routes but he didn't: He was counting on Bajwa to save him. Imran was by then too unpopular to call the Early Elections, which was not a surprise because a lot of people were cursing him for the inflation resulting from the massive drop in Pakistani Rupees, though my own opinion at that time was to be patient and let Imran's reforms continue.
That he was not tried is a testament to the stupid legal system of Pakistan: Had the Indian PM or the British PM tried to throw out an NCM based on the BS 'Americans are removing me from power' then they would be tried very harshly. Yeah, the same Americans who removed Imran then became the 'main' route for his sons to try to release Imran. What a joke!!!
Imran not only lost the high moral ground by throwing out the NCM but he also did a political suicide: He had an immense presence in the Pakistani assemblies and would have given the new govt which followed him a tough time. But he is politically too stupid, too egotistical to be a little patient and bide his time. And here he is now: At a dead-end, no matter how much the expats try to deny that.

 

[Respect4Respect]

Pakistani establishment/dictators survive on chaos and political instability. Terrorism suddenly spikes when they are feeling the heat and then sell it like they are laying down their lives for the country, but in reality poor foot soldiers are used as cannon fodder so the generals can keep their grip on power.

 

[Meengla]

This is definitely Imran Khan error, he was told by Sheikh Rasheed, an experienced politician to resign from assemblies and go for elections since Imran Khan will be trapped if NCM is tabled in the assemblies, he did not listen. Sheikh Rasheed knew PTI lost the majority due to Pmlq, Mqm, Bap changing sides and 30 MNAs planned on switching over, remember Aleem Khan and Jahangir Tahreen were already out of Pti and waiting for their chance.

The same way after IK removal, IK was told by Pervez Ellahi to sit in the opposition and not resign from opposition, Punjab and Kpk assemblies since Pti will be eaten by the wolves, IK did not listen and we know what happened next. Today IK is in jail but Pti is sitting in opposition, aswell as KpK assembly. They learnt their lesson.

The same way all this anti establishment, army narrative will fail, IK himself used to say we need to respect armed forces and work with them. Pakistan comes first, leaders come and go, generals come and go. Ofcourse no doubt trampling on the constitution and break every single law is unacceptable but IK PTI trapped the establishment, they were done and only way to come back was through force. In my opinion it's a big failure. If we our military was weak we would have been the next Syria and Libya but they allowed the situation to reach this level is also a failure.

You speak too much facts for some ears! The first two paragraphs of your post should be closely pondered: How can one be so politically stupid??!! He dug his own grave!! As I said, never in the history of Pakistan has someone lost so much in such a short time after reaching the zenith of his power and prestige which he must have felt like when the Americans left Afghanistan in August 2021.

 

[PakAl]

You speak too much facts for some ears! The first two paragraphs of your post should be closely pondered: How can one be so politically stupid??!! He dug his own grave!! As I said, never in the history of Pakistan has someone lost so much in such a short time after reaching the zenith of his power and prestige which he must have felt like when the Americans left Afghanistan in August 2021.

He was not politically mature since it was first time as PM, he tried to play political games with Zardari and Nawaz but these guys have 30 years of experience. Sheikh Rasheed was correct though, IK should have dissolved assemblies, blamed everything on Zardari and Nawaz and made up propaganda that they bribed everyone, then come back to power again whilst maintaining good relations with the establishment. IK vision for Pakistan was correct, he gave everyone hope but practically he was surrounded by all dacoits who have since left PTI. I don't know who advices him. The same way he went anti America but later on said it was only Bajwa. Today all PTI are saying it was just establishment/Bajwa since they need Usa support to sort out the establishment.

If you have time read this. It on the events which took place, on the rise of IK and his downfall.
Thread 'Imran Khan: The Path to Revolution"
PakAl PDF'

Thread 'Imran Khan: The Path to Revolution"PakAl PDF'

Oct 2, 2024

"Imran Khan: The Path to Revolution"
PakAl PDF

Imran Khan’s journey is truly remarkable, evolving from a world-class cricket player into a global figure of change. Starting as one of the best all-rounders in cricket history, he cemented his legacy by captaining Pakistan to its first-ever Cricket World Cup win in 1992. His fame transcended sports, as he focused on philanthropy, establishing cancer hospitals like Shaukat Khanum Memorial Cancer Hospital & Research Centre, inspired by his mother's battle with cancer. These hospitals offer free treatment to thousands of needy patients, making...

• PakAl
• Replies: 6
• Forum: Pakistani Siasat

• 
• 

 

[Meengla]

He was not politically mature since it was first time as PM, he tried to play political games with Zardari and Nawaz but these guys have 30 years of experience. Sheikh Rasheed was correct though, IK should have dissolved assemblies, blamed everything on Zardari and Nawaz and made up propaganda that they bribed everyone, then come back to power again whilst maintaining good relations with the establishment. IK vision for Pakistan was correct, he gave everyone hope but practically he was surrounded by all dacoits who have since left PTI. I don't know who advices him. The same way he went anti America but later on said it was only Bajwa. Today all PTI are saying it was just establishment/Bajwa since they need Usa support to sort out the establishment.

You are right. As for who advised him, I bet it was he himself otherwise he had some very mature politicians right around him, some of whom you have named. But when a man is so politically stupid and personally so arrogant, then that combination becomes that man's downfall.
Anyway, I am out of this debate. Got burned dealing with the NCM related issues in the old PDF. No point repeating the same old.

 

[PakAl]

@Meengla. You must reflect on the mistakes of the generals aswell. How can they make such big blunders, allow IK to reach such high powerful level and then some how loose control over him. The situation could have been catastrophic since situation like these lead to civil wars in Syria and Libya. Imran Khan even before coming to power used to say i will sort out Altaf Hussain, Nawaz Sharif, Fazlur Rehman and Zardari, he was always a tough cookie.

This is why Pakistan needs all party conference on what is happening in Balochistan and KPK, investigate on the grievances, mistakes, exploitation committed in those regions. Those who did wrong must be punished, we need to work with the locals and isolate the terrorists and their ideology, we need development, jobs, schools, roads in those areas.

 

[Starlord]

Yep
Which is ironic because of who Arif Alvi is and is possibly one of the most honest individuals and key to PTI win in 2018 from the sidelines.

There are people with whom you get vibes
Ive sat across from IK and met Alvi sb a few times
IK would lhave the aura of a cult leader and his booming voice and yet the smell of a politician. Never had that feeling other than honest warmth from Alvi Sb.

Never met either of them except some local MQM leadership to a point of Salam & W/salaam. IK made Alvi President because he didn't wanted his Bias of Karachi and Karachi wala's to be that obvious, at least him and his supporters will say hey he can't be anti Karachi wala, he picked a Karachi wala to be president while other his supporters even in this thread say that yes he ignored Karachi but so does PPPP, and that's the whole point that lots of Karachi wala's like me voted for this idiot that he will be different and his representatives will be different from PEE PEE PEE. By PTI wala's logic here, yes its wrong that IK ignored Karachi but so did PPPP, aby PPP wale galat karen gay tu tum bhi wohi karo gay ? Chawal Logic 101.

 

[Distant_Observer]

Imran Khan is an elected leader. Muneera is an usurper, ruling over Pakistan with brute force. There is no choice here.

The awam is illiterate. If they had it their way the Taliban would have been voted in 2006

Elections are meanginless for country like this.

It needs a firm guiding hand and consistent policy. Only the fauj can offer this.

 

[Meengla]

@Meengla. You must reflect on the mistakes of the generals aswell. How can they make such big blunders, allow IK to reach such high powerful level and then some how loose control over him. The situation could have been catastrophic since situation like these lead to civil wars in Syria and Libya. Imran Khan even before coming to power used to say i will sort out Altaf Hussain, Nawaz Sharif, Fazlur Rehman and Zardari, he was always a tough cookie.

This is why Pakistan needs all party conference on what is happening in Balochistan and KPK, investigate on the grievances, mistakes, exploitation committed in those regions. Those who did wrong must be punished, we need to work with the locals and isolate the terrorists and their ideology, we need development, jobs, schools, roads in those areas.

The rot in Pakistan is basically because of the Generals, especially Zia ul Haq but also those who have been behind political machinations since Zia's death. But as long as Pakistan doesn't have an alternate strong entity to the military and as long as there is a dire threat from India, I will tolerate the Generals because I consider them the first, only, and the last line of defense for Pakistan.
Going forward, Pakistan needs 15-20 years of stability, focus, peace education, and continuation of policies. And I don't care how that is achieved: Hybrid, Full democracy, or even a naked military regime.