JF-17 PFX program

[FarhanSiddiqui]

….. We are currently looking into this 5th gen locally build scenario that I outlined above ….

This kind of fantasy stopped us for joining the 5th generation Turkish KAAN project as full partner. Pakistan does not have industrial infrastructure and technology to build even a fourth generation fighter from scratch. The fantasy 5th generation AZM project is dead on arrival. At least manufacture each and every component of the future JF-17 Block 4 in Pakistan first.

 

[Ak01]

Can you shed lights on the technical difficulty why they cannot be upgraded into block 3? leave out the life span of airframes that is certainly one issue there?

let me re word it-

technically im sure everything is feasible, the airframe are similar but the additional cooling/wiring/antennas etc probably create a bit of headache, when you look at block 3's, they make use of 4 conformal arrays for their ecm suites, 2 being in the LE of the wing- naturally the structure of the wing is different, designed with spacing in mind for this etc. its probably many minor changes that end up just being uneconomical to incorporate here.

The airframe lifespan is the bigger issue, these airframes are likely EoL nearly, thus, any modifications will be heavily value proposition based, for which im guessing there just isnt much in these block 1s

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

let me re word it-

technically im sure everything is feasible, the airframe are similar but the additional cooling/wiring/antennas etc probably create a bit of headache, when you look at block 3's, they make use of 4 conformal arrays for their ecm suites, 2 being in the LE of the wing- naturally the structure of the wing is different, designed with spacing in mind for this etc. its probably many minor changes that end up just being uneconomical to incorporate here.

The airframe lifespan is the bigger issue, these airframes are likely EoL nearly, thus, any modifications will be heavily value proposition based, for which im guessing there just isnt much in these block 1s

I have a naive question because it's obvious I don't have knowledge or experience with fighter aircrafts balkay not even on cars so apology is the below questions seems foolish. My question is when conditions weren't so bad, in KPK Peshawar, they used to take a Corolla 2D car's frame, leave the chassis number, and replace the entire car with parts from a brand-new Corolla from Jalalabad, Afghanistan. Can something similar be done with the JF-17, where a new Block 3 airframe is built, but the subsystems from Block 1 that can be used are taken as-is and installed in the new Block 3? Or are the subsystems from Block 1 that can be used in Block 3 so few that there's no cost-saving benefit at all?

 

[rakib]

I am no fighter air craft expert. So this is not an expert opinion, just an idea from a layman.

PFX should be a 5th generation fighter using a single engine, similar to a stealth version of F-16. PFX should have two versions - a Chinese version called PFX-C and a future Turkish version PFX-T. The Chinese version PFX-C should be similar to JF-17, use Chinese avionics, radar, flight computer, targeting systems and weapons systems. The Chinese version should use a single WS-10C TVC. The future Turkish version PFX-T should use Turkish avionics, radar, flight computer and targeting systems, all of which are currently available from F-16 Ozgur upgrade package. PFX-T should use Turkish TF35000 engine once it becomes available from Turkey around 2030. Please look at Turkish Ozgur upgrade package 1 and 2 which can be used for upgrading Pakistan's F-16. These systems can be reused in the PFX-T. So the difference between F-16 Ozgur and PFX-T would be that PFX-T will be 5th generation stealth air-frame to ensure low radar signature and also instead of 2 engines in the KAAN, PFX-T will be a single engine, a lighter aircraft with much lower initial and operational cost. Turkey has the Hurjet which may be upgraded in the future with a TF35000, but it is not a fifth generation stealth air frame. This way the PFX-T can be a new low cost main single engine multi-role fighter work horse like the F-16, but it will be fifth generation and will be based on all indigenous Turkish systems such as AESA radar, avionics, weapon systems and TF35000 engine. This will also be a move away from dependence solely on China, not putting all eggs in one basket, and closer integration with Turkish systems, once the Turkish engine TF35000 starts serial production. This also ensures that all current and future advanced Turkish drones (Kizilelma, Anka-3 etc.) will be fully compatible with the PFX-T. Just as current JF-17 Block 3 for Azerbaijan was made compatible with Turkish weapon systems, it will be a good idea to make the PFX-C compatible with Turkish weapon systems, for customers who prefer to use Turkish weapon systems. Having access to flight computer software source code is the key to this flexibility.

 

[Ak01]

I have a naive question because it's obvious I don't have knowledge or experience with fighter aircrafts balkay not even on cars so apology is the below questions seems foolish. My question is when conditions weren't so bad, in KPK Peshawar, they used to take a Corolla 2D car's frame, leave the chassis number, and replace the entire car with parts from a brand-new Corolla from Jalalabad, Afghanistan. Can something similar be done with the JF-17, where a new Block 3 airframe is built, but the subsystems from Block 1 that can be used are taken as-is and installed in the new Block 3? Or are the subsystems from Block 1 that can be used in Block 3 so few that there's no cost-saving benefit at all?

Yeah, any serviceable bits will probably get stored to support the paf's fleet.

stuff that still has life left in it, not only for the block 3's but to support the block 2 fleet too. The PAF did this with mirages, its the only way to keep these airframes running without oem support or third party components, it will probably happen here too. The airframes likely will be a goldmine for spares.

This will certainly happen, just not on new airframes im guessing, it would be a logistical nightmare, likely bits will be refurbished and kept on the shelves for the fleet.

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

PFX should be a 5th generation fighter using a single engine, similar to a stealth version of F-16. PFX should have two versions - a Chinese version called PFX-C and a future Turkish version PFX-T. The Chinese version PFX-

Pakistan instead should build a trainer from conceptual design to production with locally built subsystems. Trainer similar to Chinese L-15 or Korean T-50. We should have achievable goals not live in fantasy world.

 

[FuturePAF]

I think we are going backwards to 1998 again per the post. I've said it numerous times, JF-17 was our past. It gave the nation what it needed, a workhorse, sanction free jet with top end BVR capability that we can still fly for daily, routine airspace management. It should stop with the OCU (MLU) with all 180 jets upgraded to block III standards with GaN based AESA radars and PL-15 integration. This takes care of our peacetime workhorse capabilities.

Now, JF-17's exist in 180. That's where we should stop. With KSA now in the picture for mutual defense agreement. We need to see beyond the JF-17. We can't get stuck on it like we've been stuck at the F-16. Technology changes and so do we.

We need to acquire more J-10C's to replace our aging Mirages and F-7's. That's our 4.5 gen backbone complimenting our JF-17's for workhorse airspace management needs.

We will also get about 2 squadrons of J-35's initially. I don't see those going up above 60.

Our future: Under PFX, we need a 5th gen platform similar to how we build the JF-17. With KSA In the picture, this should be TOT product, including TOT for engine tech. China doesn't need to give it's top tier WS-21 to us, but the medium sized WS-10C is fine also.

I've written a lot about getting a 5th gen single engined customized supersonic CCA with TOT that would have a manned option too. To be produced in large numbers locally. Some models were shown at the military parade. We are now a regional power through this defense pact. We have the funding also, we need to strategize accordingly and build projects meeting future needs with the top nations in the world. Not go back to 1998. We are lucky that we have the world's largest R&D nation next door. With financials becoming less of an issue, we need to train our people, acquire and build under TOT the top capability we can also deploy across KSA and a few other nations who will join the WAPAN pact (War Alliance of Pakistan & Arab Nations).


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I agree we have to think beyond the JF-17 and F-16, and accept we might have to go with more J-10s because the PFX will take a while to get building.

The big question was the engine for the PFX, and I also agree we have to go with an engine China will be willing to share (possibly even ToT for local production); the WS-10B/C vs an engine they may not want to share like the WS-19. It’s the problem @MastanKhan and I argued for years was a major limitation of the JF-17 for the modern weapons that need to be carried.

 

[Pakistanithinktank]

Yes they have the money do they have the Technology? Do you even follow what is happening in the world. Histroy, Geography and technology plus geo politics? Your name is Think Tank but it seems there is no such thing as thinking in your posts. Arabs have the money they can buy best but issue is the best comes from Europe which would never give them the same quality and capability weapons as they give to Israel. Turkiye is catching up and China already has matched and in many cases ahead of Europe. Plus we are also working on projects from these countries they can get weapons with latest BVR, long range missiles, and other weapons to strike at long range both in the Air and on the Ground and no questions will be asked or chance of any sanctions.

You keep pushing the idea that Arab money will flow into Pakistan’s PFX just because Pakistan is “sanctions free,” but that’s not how defense or geopolitics work. Gulf states won’t risk billions in Pakistan’s unstable political and economic system when they’re already building their own defense industries at home through SAMI and EDGE. If Arabs want advanced tech, they’ll buy directly from China or Turkey, not bet on a project still stuck in R&D.
BTW, Where is the AZM project now?
At most, Pakistan will get small joint ventures or training deals, but the big money and flagship projects will stay in Riyadh and Abu Dhabi where they bring jobs, prestige, and control.

I can also write a counter argument but I wanted to see what kind of response I get from you. There are too many kindergartners daydreaming in the forum.

 

[puttputt]

Yeah, any serviceable bits will probably get stored to support the paf's fleet.

stuff that still has life left in it, not only for the block 3's but to support the block 2 fleet too. The PAF did this with mirages, its the only way to keep these airframes running without oem support or third party components, it will probably happen here too. The airframes likely will be a goldmine for spares.

This will certainly happen, just not on new airframes im guessing, it would be a logistical nightmare, likely bits will be refurbished and kept on the shelves for the fleet.

I agree they won't be upgraded, but It's worth recalling that the Block-1s were fairly well configured despite being essentially IOC aircraft (relative to Block-3). IIRC, they had come with C-802 and FT PGB compatibility OOB, and for that, the PAF will keep flying them as long as it can minus any major refurbishment. I think the next few years will be interesting to watch as we'll get a clearer idea of what the structural resiliency of the Thunder is (we know the stated hours on the airframe, but whether it gets there and if extending it is indeed too costly remains to be seen).

 

[gamaji]

Dreaming is free, but investing is not. Why would Arab countries choose to invest in the PFX program, or in Pakistan, when Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE have the financial resources to launch their own projects? If they really wanted, they could develop a local product like KAAN or simply procure a platform directly from China. Their options are broad, and they have the means to pursue independent defense initiatives.

Bro, you have no idea of how poor these countries are in terms of human resources. They can buy everything but they cannot produce anything on their own. The best they can achieve is finance advanced projects in Pakistan and then slowly create production lines in their countries (again using mostly foreign man power).

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Yeah, any serviceable bits will probably get stored to support the paf's fleet.

stuff that still has life left in it, not only for the block 3's but to support the block 2 fleet too. The PAF did this with mirages, its the only way to keep these airframes running without oem support or third party components, it will probably happen here too. The airframes likely will be a goldmine for spares.

This will certainly happen, just not on new airframes im guessing, it would be a logistical nightmare, likely bits will be refurbished and kept on the shelves for the fleet.

that makes sense. any confirmed reports as i have seen/heard from many sources that block 3 airframe life has been extended to 8000 hours? from block 1 which had 4000 hours?

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

You keep pushing the idea that Arab money will flow into Pakistan’s PFX ….
BTW, Where is the AZM project now?

Exactly ! Matric pass people don’t realize how much industrial and technological knowledge you need besides billions of dollars. Even European countries like UK, Germany, Italy and Japan have to cooperate to build next generation fighter.

 

[Ak01]

that makes sense. any confirmed reports as i have seen/heard from many sources that block 3 airframe life has been extended to 8000 hours? from block 1 which had 4000 hours?

id bet my testicles thats false

 

[FuturePAF]

We can secure Arab funding now. PFX is must to make sure we have our local defense industry. And a robust one. Bring Arab money in making the plane plus R & D and increase your defense industry not just fighter jets.

Absolutely. We need to build back the entire defense industry to catch up to our potential adversaries. While we have good suppliers, a more robust domestic industry ensures quicker turn around and staying within budget.

 

[FuturePAF]

You didn't explain Block-III+ Standards.
Apart from that, I think ToT bid has already been done at least in soft version (blueprints, CAD/CAM design aid, Project files etc.) Ref to Wajaht Saeed Khan's vlog where he talked with ref to his correspondence with PAF on current chief's corruption allegation. He revealed that PAF told him that entire package for JF-17 platform has been secured. If it's true, It means the hold up is on areas where PAF wants to enhance things plus missing pieces on production line side. More jigs, machines, tools may be required to build 100% airframe and internal systems. It is test of PAF's project management team as much as it is of PAF's technical manpower in terms of aero engineers and technicians.

Block III+ Is basically the capabilities within the J-10C, but to push the plane to its limits; a liquid cooled GaN of 1000+ T/R modules on a swashplate. An IRST, an internal AESA jammer, a towed decoy, an upgraded datalink, RAM coating, an APU and OBOGS to allow more remote operations in dispersal to motorway operations, and retractable IFR probe to improve RCS signature.