JF-17 PFX program

Notice that there was absolutely no mention whatsoever of the KAAN in the latest PAF video?!

For the medium term at least, looks like the PAF ORBAT will be based on the J-31/35, J-10, and potentially 'Block 4' version of the JF-17, if indeed that is what the 'PFX' is. From the video, it appears that there are no major changes to the current airframe, so I doubt very much that it will be a 'stealth' version of the JF-17, but rather an 'NG' version, akin to the Gripen.

If that is the case, it appears the PAF may not be willing to upgrade earlier Block I JF-17s with AESA etc to Block III standard, as part of a potential 'MLU', but rather induct new airframes with enhanced avionics/weapons.
 
Notice that there was absolutely no mention whatsoever of the KAAN in the latest PAF video?!

For the medium term at least, looks like the PAF ORBAT will be based on the J-31/35, J-10, and potentially 'Block 4' version of the JF-17, if indeed that is what the 'PFX' is. From the video, it appears that there are no major changes to the current airframe, so I doubt very much that it will be a 'stealth' version of the JF-17, but rather an 'NG' version, akin to the Gripen.

If that is the case, it appears the PAF may not be willing to upgrade earlier Block I JF-17s with AESA etc to Block III standard, as part of a potential 'MLU', but rather induct new airframes with enhanced avionics/weapons.
KAAN is at least 6 years away. That is why there was no mention of KAAN. Even in best possible scenario and everything goes smoothly KAAN won't come before 2030. We would soon join KAAN project officially though.
 
KAAN is at least 6 years away. That is why there was no mention of KAAN. Even in best possible scenario and everything goes smoothly KAAN won't come before 2030. We would soon join KAAN project officially though.

Probably more than that. In any case, at least for the PAF, it seems the KAAN is an option for the long term, well past 2035 maybe when the platform has had time to mature, and I doubt the J-31/35 will appear anytime in the next 5 years, even though it has had a lengthy gestation time.
 
Probably more than that. In any case, at least for the PAF, it seems the KAAN is an option for the long term, well past 2035 maybe when the platform has had time to mature, and I doubt the J-31/35 will appear anytime in the next 5 years, even though it has had a lengthy gestation time.
J-31 will be here way sooner than you think. And right now, question is what the hell is this JF-17 PFX program.
 
I do think this a PAF attempt todo a homegrown Block VI variant with more local content, and more munitions etc from Turkey aswell. I dont see it radically different aerodynamically from the previous blocks in that regard.
 
Notice that there was absolutely no mention whatsoever of the KAAN in the latest PAF video?!

For the medium term at least, looks like the PAF ORBAT will be based on the J-31/35, J-10, and potentially 'Block 4' version of the JF-17, if indeed that is what the 'PFX' is. From the video, it appears that there are no major changes to the current airframe, so I doubt very much that it will be a 'stealth' version of the JF-17, but rather an 'NG' version, akin to the Gripen.

If that is the case, it appears the PAF may not be willing to upgrade earlier Block I JF-17s with AESA etc to Block III standard, as part of a potential 'MLU', but rather induct new airframes with enhanced avionics/weapons.
JF-17PFX

should benefit greatly from Tech advancement since 2011 (PRC technology has come long way since 2011 - J10C, JF17 Block 3, J35, FC31 prototype, J20)

I think project is now mature enough (Tech) that it is now in prototype stage at CAC. i remmeber @messiah (old pdf) visiting chengdu some years ago.

so, i am hopeful any 1 of 3 x Designs was finalised then now when WS19 engine is ready they will proceed with Prototype stage.
 
I agree with @JamD

There's no "JF-17 PFX." It's the PAF's last-ditch attempt to give the JF-17 production line more life, and it likely won't succeed. Why? Well, it's not because of the JF-17, but because AHQ is now looking towards J-10CE, J-31, and KAAN; where's JF-17 going to fit?

Personally, I believed - and still do - that the JF-17 should continue. The PAF should look at replacing the Block-Is with a Block-III/B-based system equipped with improved subsystems and next-gen interoperability (E.g., MUM-T).

No matter what, we should maintain a large fleet of lightweight fighters to defend our airspace, even if we induct many larger designs, like the J-31 and KAAN. Dedicate the latter for offensive operations, retain and upgrade the JF-17s for defensive measures.

Stop thinking about export. The truth is that the JF-17 is a niche concept. Not many air forces needed that type of fighter and the ones who did all designed and built their own (i.e., Sweden, South Korea, and India). Thus, you're left with a tiny market and quite a few options. The concept is starting to catch on now, but most buyers are leaning toward the Korean F/A-50, which provides a great balance of cost, capability, and manageable Western integration.

This isn't to indict the JF-17. It gave the PAF the fighter it needed at a critical time, and even with zero exports, I'd call it a success. Unfortunately, the PAF isn't equipped to manage the program for its next chapter.

The PAF leadership is trying to be a warfighting force, business, gentleman's club, tech startup, and foreign affairs ministry all in one. However, the institution isn't equipped to manage any of that non-warfighting work efficiently, nor should it be...

IMO, in the late 2000s, entities such as PAC (alongside HIT, POF, KSEW, etc) should have been reorganized into a separate force focused on defence R&D and production.

Okay, you don't want to trust the politicians and civilians - fine! - then at least set up another military service arm focused on R&D and production.

Put a 3-star/4-star general at the top alongside 1-star/2-stars to form a board of directors, and then delegate, delegate, and delegate the management of the R&D arm to scientists, engineers, business experts, etc. Basically, adopt a similar model to what the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation does with Turkiye's state-owned defence industry players, like TAI.

These experts would've seen the JF-17's market problems many years in advance and, in turn, could've pivoted to a succession program sooner. For example, they might have flagged the J-31 and TFX earlier on in their development cycles and, in turn, pushed for advance funding towards both to secure valuable co-production work, tech transfer, etc, later. They may spot and leverage opportunities (e.g., South Africa's Marlin AAM/SAM program, Ukraine's AI-9500F turbofan, etc.,) to build our domestic capability base.
 
I agree with @JamD

There's no "JF-17 PFX." It's the PAF's last-ditch attempt to give the JF-17 production line more life, and it likely won't succeed. Why? Well, it's not because of the JF-17, but because AHQ is now looking towards J-10CE, J-31, and KAAN; where's JF-17 going to fit?

Personally, I believed - and still do - that the JF-17 should continue. The PAF should look at replacing the Block-Is with a Block-III/B-based system equipped with improved subsystems and next-gen interoperability (E.g., MUM-T).

No matter what, we should maintain a large fleet of lightweight fighters to defend our airspace, even if we induct many larger designs, like the J-31 and KAAN. Dedicate the latter for offensive operations, retain and upgrade the JF-17s for defensive measures.

Stop thinking about export. The truth is that the JF-17 is a niche concept. Not many air forces needed that type of fighter and the ones who did all designed and built their own (i.e., Sweden, South Korea, and India). Thus, you're left with a tiny market and quite a few options. The concept is starting to catch on now, but most buyers are leaning toward the Korean F/A-50, which provides a great balance of cost, capability, and manageable Western integration.

This isn't to indict the JF-17. It gave the PAF the fighter it needed at a critical time, and even with zero exports, I'd call it a success. Unfortunately, the PAF isn't equipped to manage the program for its next chapter.

The PAF leadership is trying to be a warfighting force, business, gentleman's club, tech startup, and foreign affairs ministry all in one. However, the institution isn't equipped to manage any of that non-warfighting work efficiently, nor should it be...

IMO, in the late 2000s, entities such as PAC (alongside HIT, POF, KSEW, etc) should have been reorganized into a separate force focused on defence R&D and production.

Okay, you don't want to trust the politicians and civilians - fine! - then at least set up another military service arm focused on R&D and production.

Put a 3-star/4-star general at the top alongside 1-star/2-stars to form a board of directors, and then delegate, delegate, and delegate the management of the R&D arm to scientists, engineers, business experts, etc. Basically, adopt a similar model to what the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation does with Turkiye's state-owned defence industry players, like TAI.

These experts would've seen the JF-17's market problems many years in advance and, in turn, could've pivoted to a succession program sooner. For example, they might have flagged the J-31 and TFX earlier on in their development cycles and, in turn, pushed for advance funding towards both to secure valuable co-production work, tech transfer, etc, later. They may spot and leverage opportunities (e.g., South Africa's Marlin AAM/SAM program, Ukraine's AI-9500F turbofan, etc.,) to build our domestic capability base.
though, this now begs the question, what is going to happen to AMF. it would be a massive strategic blunder to let it go idle.

Possibly could explain the FC-31 buy? A 'relatively' simpler to manufacture aircraft that the line can transition onto? But that still leaves it idle for years, though, it does explain the significantly slowed down Block 3 production rate, maybe theyll just keep drip feeding PAC orders to then keep the line lukewarm, but i dont see any direction on where any of this is going, the transition to either FC-31 or TFX wont be easy, nor will it be quick or cheap, i wonder what the game plan is...
 
I agree with @JamD

There's no "JF-17 PFX." It's the PAF's last-ditch attempt to give the JF-17 production line more life, and it likely won't succeed. Why? Well, it's not because of the JF-17, but because AHQ is now looking towards J-10CE, J-31, and KAAN; where's JF-17 going to fit?

Personally, I believed - and still do - that the JF-17 should continue. The PAF should look at replacing the Block-Is with a Block-III/B-based system equipped with improved subsystems and next-gen interoperability (E.g., MUM-T).

No matter what, we should maintain a large fleet of lightweight fighters to defend our airspace, even if we induct many larger designs, like the J-31 and KAAN. Dedicate the latter for offensive operations, retain and upgrade the JF-17s for defensive measures.

Stop thinking about export. The truth is that the JF-17 is a niche concept. Not many air forces needed that type of fighter and the ones who did all designed and built their own (i.e., Sweden, South Korea, and India). Thus, you're left with a tiny market and quite a few options. The concept is starting to catch on now, but most buyers are leaning toward the Korean F/A-50, which provides a great balance of cost, capability, and manageable Western integration.

This isn't to indict the JF-17. It gave the PAF the fighter it needed at a critical time, and even with zero exports, I'd call it a success. Unfortunately, the PAF isn't equipped to manage the program for its next chapter.

The PAF leadership is trying to be a warfighting force, business, gentleman's club, tech startup, and foreign affairs ministry all in one. However, the institution isn't equipped to manage any of that non-warfighting work efficiently, nor should it be...

IMO, in the late 2000s, entities such as PAC (alongside HIT, POF, KSEW, etc) should have been reorganized into a separate force focused on defence R&D and production.

Okay, you don't want to trust the politicians and civilians - fine! - then at least set up another military service arm focused on R&D and production.

Put a 3-star/4-star general at the top alongside 1-star/2-stars to form a board of directors, and then delegate, delegate, and delegate the management of the R&D arm to scientists, engineers, business experts, etc. Basically, adopt a similar model to what the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation does with Turkiye's state-owned defence industry players, like TAI.

These experts would've seen the JF-17's market problems many years in advance and, in turn, could've pivoted to a succession program sooner. For example, they might have flagged the J-31 and TFX earlier on in their development cycles and, in turn, pushed for advance funding towards both to secure valuable co-production work, tech transfer, etc, later. They may spot and leverage opportunities (e.g., South Africa's Marlin AAM/SAM program, Ukraine's AI-9500F turbofan, etc.,) to build our domestic capability base.

Points you’ve raised, there’s also a culture issue at play. While the Pakistan armed forces various foundations invest in real estate and housing societies, the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation (TAFF) invests in actual defense companies, hence the TAFF owns majority stakes of the Turkish Aerospace Industries and other leading Turkish institutions.
 
I agree with @JamD

There's no "JF-17 PFX." It's the PAF's last-ditch attempt to give the JF-17 production line more life, and it likely won't succeed. Why? Well, it's not because of the JF-17, but because AHQ is now looking towards J-10CE, J-31, and KAAN; where's JF-17 going to fit?

Personally, I believed - and still do - that the JF-17 should continue. The PAF should look at replacing the Block-Is with a Block-III/B-based system equipped with improved subsystems and next-gen interoperability (E.g., MUM-T).

No matter what, we should maintain a large fleet of lightweight fighters to defend our airspace, even if we induct many larger designs, like the J-31 and KAAN. Dedicate the latter for offensive operations, retain and upgrade the JF-17s for defensive measures.

Stop thinking about export. The truth is that the JF-17 is a niche concept. Not many air forces needed that type of fighter and the ones who did all designed and built their own (i.e., Sweden, South Korea, and India). Thus, you're left with a tiny market and quite a few options. The concept is starting to catch on now, but most buyers are leaning toward the Korean F/A-50, which provides a great balance of cost, capability, and manageable Western integration.

This isn't to indict the JF-17. It gave the PAF the fighter it needed at a critical time, and even with zero exports, I'd call it a success. Unfortunately, the PAF isn't equipped to manage the program for its next chapter.

The PAF leadership is trying to be a warfighting force, business, gentleman's club, tech startup, and foreign affairs ministry all in one. However, the institution isn't equipped to manage any of that non-warfighting work efficiently, nor should it be...

IMO, in the late 2000s, entities such as PAC (alongside HIT, POF, KSEW, etc) should have been reorganized into a separate force focused on defence R&D and production.

Okay, you don't want to trust the politicians and civilians - fine! - then at least set up another military service arm focused on R&D and production.

Put a 3-star/4-star general at the top alongside 1-star/2-stars to form a board of directors, and then delegate, delegate, and delegate the management of the R&D arm to scientists, engineers, business experts, etc. Basically, adopt a similar model to what the Turkish Armed Forces Foundation does with Turkiye's state-owned defence industry players, like TAI.

These experts would've seen the JF-17's market problems many years in advance and, in turn, could've pivoted to a succession program sooner. For example, they might have flagged the J-31 and TFX earlier on in their development cycles and, in turn, pushed for advance funding towards both to secure valuable co-production work, tech transfer, etc, later. They may spot and leverage opportunities (e.g., South Africa's Marlin AAM/SAM program, Ukraine's AI-9500F turbofan, etc.,) to build our domestic capability base.

I don't think the PAF can afford a fleet of JF-17, J-10, J-31, and KAAN. The JF-17s aren't going anywhere soon, plenty of life especially in the Block II and III airframes.

KAAN is a very long -term option for the PAF in my view. If you look at the way the PAF adopts a new platform, they wait until it has matured, e.g. J-10 and J-31. In addition, given that the KAAN is meant to replace the Vipers in TuAF service, the PAF may adopt a similar approach and eventually replace its Vipers with the KAAN, which may be 10 years or so. In the medium term, it's most likely J-31, J-10, and a potential 'Block 4' JF-17.
 
I don't think the PAF can afford a fleet of JF-17, J-10, J-31, and KAAN. The JF-17s aren't going anywhere soon, plenty of life especially in the Block II and III airframes.
pretty sure not very far from now first block 1's may either begin being phased out or look to have service lives extended- though, im not sure how sensoble the latter would be
 
The PAF has almost reinvented itself in the last 5 years despite a bad economy and political instability! It shows how strong the Pak Deep State is! And, how deep its financial resources are!! Tackling hostile enemies in 2 fronts and a wolf under the sheep's skin in another front is no joke.....
No, the thing is pakistan is a security state. For defence, the funds will always be available,doesnt matter the rest of the sectors and the public at large is suffering or not.
 
PFX is plain and simple blk 4. PAC will continue with jft since it can't afford to shut down the line. Too much at stake. PFX was proposed by CAC back in 2017 but never materialized.

This will serve as the low end with j10c being mid while j31 being high end. KAAN is a distant dream for now as I don't see it in TUAF let alone for export before 2035.
 
pretty sure not very far from now first block 1's may either begin being phased out or look to have service lives extended- though, im not sure how sensoble the latter would be

That's why I referred to only Block II and III airframes. The PAF may be of the view that it's more effective to produce new 'Block 4' aiframes in the guise of 'JFX' rather than pursue an 'MLU' of earlier Block I airfrmes. But one thing is clear, there has been no official word from the PAF about inducting the KAAN, yet they are repeating their message of inducting the J-31 and clearly still pursuing the JF-17 programme, otherwise why mention it in such an explicit manner.
 
I don't think the PAF can afford a fleet of JF-17, J-10, J-31, and KAAN. The JF-17s aren't going anywhere soon, plenty of life especially in the Block II and III airframes.

KAAN is a very long -term option for the PAF in my view. If you look at the way the PAF adopts a new platform, they wait until it has matured, e.g. J-10 and J-31. In addition, given that the KAAN is meant to replace the Vipers in TuAF service, the PAF may adopt a similar approach and eventually replace its Vipers with the KAAN, which may be 10 years or so. In the medium term, it's most likely J-31, J-10, and a potential 'Block 4' JF-17.
For now, it would be JF-17, J-31, J-10 C in primary roles. After 6 years KAAN will start to come. Still the question remains what on earth is JF 17 PFX. If it turns out it's not KAAN but a Grippen E type version of JF-17 than that would also mean, we would at least induct at least 150 of those jets. Because less than that doesn't give us economies of scale.
 

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