AMCA vs KAAN vs KF-21 India Turkey & Korea’s Fighter Jets Battle For Air Supremacy—Who Leads The Pack? OP-ED

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flyingorca said:
Most of Indian technologies in LCA is european. Swiss French German Italian consultants have contributed alot which is labeled Indian R&D. without west and Russia every Indian so called Indigenous product dies. Their Dhruv helicopter is pretty much German.
If Pakistan had bigger economy and higher defense budget they would have also hired europeans.

Swiss ALR Piranha (1980s light fighter concept).
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NO South African ATLAS CARVER has striking resemblance than this one maybe HAL and DRDDO purchase CARVER design to develop TEJAS in 90s

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harpy1 said:
Right now
You have
12 J10 soon 25 eventually
150 Thunders
68 mostly old block 30 falcons
50 odd mirages and F7

That's 300 planes you need to scrap
You won't do that on ten years definitely maybe not even 20 years
Based on past performance

Amca will be here by 2040 that's 15 years away
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Where did you get that 300 figure from?

You retire your worst, and retain you best, while inducting newer fighters.

By the time India has a prototype, Pakistan should have 1 to 2 squadrons of 5th gen.

Pakistan has a doctrine that says there should a hi-lo mix of fighters. Pakistan won't get rid of its 4th gen fighters until a suitable 6th gen is available, and 5th gen become the lo in the hi-lo equation.

[Edit]: Its also looking to upgrade its existing F-16 fighter fleet through (in discussion) turkiye, and (rumor has it) Romania. It's likely going to also increase its orders of J-10Cs to +70, and continue retiring its Mirage, and few F-7 fighter fleets. So no, it doesn't need to replace 300 fighters any time soon.
 
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Turkey's KAAN Fighter vs US F-35: A Closer Look At Feuding Fighter Jet Capabilities​

Artboard 16_9 - 2024-06-14T231755.809
Credit: Photo: Dimir | Wikimedia Commons | DoD | Simple Flying

4
By Christian D. Orr
Published Jun 15, 2024
Christian D. Orr was previously Senior Defense Editor for 19FortyFive. He is a former Air Force Security Forces officer, Federal law enforcement officer, and private military contractor (with assignments worked in Iraq, the United Arab Emirates, Kosovo, Japan, Germany, and the Pentagon). Chris holds a B.A. in International Relations from the University of Southern California (USC) and an M.A. in Intelligence Studies (concentration in Terrorism Studies) from American Military University (AMU). He has also been published in The National Interest, Real Clear Defense, The Daily Torch and The Journal of Intelligence and Cyber Security.



https://simpleflying.com/turkey-kaan-fighter-vs-usaf-f-35-feuding-fighter-jet-capabilities/#threads





Summary​

  • Turkey has developed a domestic fighter jet, the KAAN, to replace F-16s & compete with the F-35.
  • The KAAN boasts on-paper advantages over the F-35, with two engines and more payload capacity.
  • Turkish Aerospace Industries plans to produce 20 KAAN jets by 2028 and increase production in subsequent years.
Within the U.S. Armed Forces, (mostly) friendly interservice rivalries abound, as embodied by the traditional Army-Navy Game in college football. What's not as well known in civilian circles is the prevalence of *intra*-service rivalries: for example, within the U.S. Air Force (USAF), you have fighter pilots vs. bomber pilots; from there, within the USAF fighter pilot community, you have the F-15 Eagle drivers vs. the F-16 "Viper" jocks.
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These Are The World's Top 5 Air Forces Equipped With F-16 Fighter Jets​

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But now we're going to discuss a different sort of rivalry, this time a newly declared international, inter-alliance rivalry, between the fighter jock communities of the U.S. and one of its longtime NATO allies. Turkey (or "Türkiye," if you prefer).
Turkey remains a NATO ally in spite of its President, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, having cozy relations with Russia. That Turkish-American alliance is exemplified by the fact that Turkey is second only to the U.S. in having the largest F-16 fleet in the world (as noted in the article linked above).
However, as far as a 5th Generation fighter jet replacement for the F-16, Turkey is now turning to a homegrown warbird (no avian pun intended) instead of the American-made Lockheed Martin F-35 Lighting !!: say "Merhaba" ("Hello") to the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) KAAN ("Leader" or "Ruler") fighter AKA the TF ("Turkish Fighter"), TF-X, and MMU (Milli Muharip Uçak/"National Combat Aircraft"),

The why and the wherefore of the KAAN​

The Turkish government indeed wanted to purchase the F-35, just like so many U.S. allies both inside and outside of NATO have already done.
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However, remember what I just said about Erdogan's cozy relationship with Russia? Um, yeah, about that: on the one hand, Turkey's autocratic ruler has been selling Bayraktar drones to Ukraine; yet on the other hand, Erdogan is playing both sides of the fence, having purchased the Russian S-400 air defense system! Ergo, as Agnes Helou of Breaking Defense reported a month ago:
"Turkey was part of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 aircraft program and Turkish firms produced parts of the aircraft, but in 2019 the US suspended Turkey’s participation over Ankara’s purchase of the Russian S-400 air defense systems, much to the anger of the Erdogan government."
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TF-X_Mock-Up_Le_Bourget_2019

TF-X_TAI_Le_Bourget_2019

"The expulsion from the F-35 effort has led to a major emphasis on developing and producing the KAAN design, which successfully completed its maiden flight in February 2024."
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The first flight of the KAAN was a fairly modest performance, lasting just 13 minutes, with the aircraft reportedly reaching an altitude of 8,000 ft (2,438.4 m) and a speed of 230 kts (254 mph; 425.9 km/h).
The KAAN completed a second flight last month, whereupon the TAI test pilot took a KAAN prototype up to 10,000 feet (3,048 m) for more than 14 minutes. The successful completion of this second mission prompted a rather bold claim by TAI General Manager Temel Kotil (as quoted by Joe Saballa of The Defense Post):
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"This aircraft is better than the F-35,” Kotil told Turkiye Newspaper. “The F-35 carries six tons, [the KAAN] carries 10 tons of ammunition... Having two engines means more energy and radars illuminating a greater distance."​
"Better than the F-35?!?!" Whoa, there, shots fired (strictly metaphorically speaking in this case, of course)! Or, in the immortal words of Bugs Bunny:
Oh, the irony: A Turkish Air Force F-16 jet acted as a safety chase during that second test flight.

F-35 vs. KAAN head-to-head​

Okay then, Mr. Kotil's audacious claim begs a serious question: how do the KAAN and the F-35 really stack up against each other? Do the facts and figures of the KAAN actually back up Kotil's claims?
The challenge in attempting a proper head-to-head comparison of the two competing warbirds is that fact, as noted by Stefano D'Urso of The Aviationist, "Not much is known about Kaan’s specifications." What we can do here and now is examine the specifications that Signore D'Urso *was* able to gather and place them alongside the F-35 specifications that came courtesy of the ever-so-handy official USAF Fact Sheets:
[td][/td]
[td]KAAN[/td]
[td]F-35[/td] [td]Max Airspeed[/td]
[td]Mach 1.8 (1,381 mph; 2,222 km/h)[/td]
[td]Mach 1.6 (~1,200 mph; 1.975 km/h)[/td] [td]Service Ceiling[/td]
[td]55,000 ft (16,764 m)[/td]
[td]Above 50,000 feet (15 kilometers)[/td] [td]Powerplant[/td]
[td]2 x F110-GE129 engines with 58,000 lb (26,308 kg) of thrust[/td]
[td]1 x Pratt & Whitney F135-PW-100 turbofan engine with 43,000 lb (19,504 kg) of thrust[/td]
​
So then, based upon those admittedly limited stats, the KAAN does indeed appear to have some on-paper advantages over Lightning II. How those on-paper advantages translate to the real world if and when (inshallah) the KAAN makes it past the prototype phase to the production phase remains to be seen.


The way forward for the KAAN​

Regarding that prospective production phase, Mr. Kotil is full of bluster and confidence there too. He and his employer aim to deliver 20 of the new aircraft by 2028 -- along with ambitions to manufacture domestically-made engines by that same year -- and “many more” between 2030 and 2033.
Time will tell whether TAI actually fulfills Kotil's rosy forecast or if he ends up over-promising and under-delivering.
 
flyingorca said:
Most of Indian technologies in LCA is european. Swiss French German Italian consultants have contributed alot which is labeled Indian R&D. without west and Russia every Indian so called Indigenous product dies. Their Dhruv helicopter is pretty much German.
If Pakistan had bigger economy and higher defense budget they would have also hired europeans.

Swiss ALR Piranha (1980s light fighter concept).
View attachment 155802View attachment 155803
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"They look similar, must be same, must be copied".
Yasser76 said:
OK, so can we not just say PAC is now developing a 8th Gen fighter called ACHAA (Advanced Combat High Altitude Aircraft)?

ACHAA has new super advanced long range missile called AMI (Advanced Missile Interceptor)

This is paired with super advanced called PIAR (Pakistan Industries Advanced Radar)

On paper combo of ACHAA, AMI, PIAR can take on F-22 and J-36 and NGAD.


See how pointless these stupid posts are!?
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No yasser, DRDO labs have made several design iterations, wind tunnel testings, LRUs fabricated, developed sensors and avionics for it, made a full-scale engineering model for testing, developed own RAM materials, serpentine intakes and so on. They proudly showcase all the tech they've worked upon and developed over the years in their brochures/presentations. PAC otoh hasn't done anything beyond painting Azm on a C-130, AMCA however delayed will eventually fly and be inducted. Saying both are at same level is what actual stupidity is.
 
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hasssanali8998 said:
sorry yaar ,but tell this Indian larping as a Israeli to not say these stupid things
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Maybe he's and actual indian Jew living in Israel?
I have met quite a few especially in Konkan region of india ( and every Jew is an Israeli citizen by law)
Back to topic- I don't endorse anything in this article, until and unless we have a flying prototype,we have developed almost all components but we can't compare

And the truth is turkish aerospace r&d is nothing short of a miracle! We are hoping that we'll be able to turn things around and builtour aerospace sector along the lines of our space agency
 
dani191 said:
pakistan no need to invest in any project 240 milion people country should develop alone like turkey is doing
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dani191 said:
look Turkey 85 milion people what they achive in 20 years
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Turkiye has started developing its own defense industry after American arms embargo in 1975

We have reached this level as a result of 50 years of determined work and experience.

btw both Turkiye ( $1,565 trillion of GDP ) and S.Korea ( $1,858 trillion of GDP ) are industrialized Countries


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Turkiye has surpassed a giant country like India in conventional military technologies and once we develop the TF-35,000 turbofan engine, we will have caught up with a country like France.



Many Turkish companies took part in the production of KAAN and supported its production...... only Engine is from USA and ejection seat from The UK
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flyingorca said:
Where did I say India copied? I said Europeans consultants and contractors designed LCA just like Dharuv Arjun LCH etc.
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Yeah sure, next say they're designing AMCA and RPSA as well.
MMM-E said:
Turkiye has surpassed a giant country like India in conventional military technologies and once we develop the TF-35,000 turbofan engine, we will have caught up with a country like France.
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Bro not this shit again 😒
 
flyingorca said:
Most of Indian technologies in LCA is european. Swiss French German Italian consultants have contributed alot which is labeled Indian R&D. without west and Russia every Indian so called Indigenous product dies. Their Dhruv helicopter is pretty much German.
If Pakistan had bigger economy and higher defense budget they would have also hired europeans.

Swiss ALR Piranha (1980s light fighter concept).
View attachment 155802View attachment 155803
Click to expand...

NGAD IS THE BEST said:
NO South African ATLAS CARVER has striking resemblance than this one maybe HAL and DRDDO purchase CARVER design to develop TEJAS in 90s

View attachment 155807
Click to expand...
All delta wing designs are going to look the same. The hard part is getting things to the right proportion and using the right materials. No Western country is going to hold your hands all the way. Not even Russians. At the end of the day, you have to design, test, find problems and overcome it. If we simply copied some western jet as it is, we wouldn't have issue mass producing them. But Tejas had issues, that's why there was MK1, 2 et al. MK2 feature Canard delta wing design which are not present in MK1.
 
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