Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]

[HRK]

It says "indigenously manufactured" But with China. What it means??

As of now no solid evidence but press release indicates that

- Haider is 3 gen tank while VT-4 is +3 gen tank, we have to keep this in our mind

- We already know that AK-1 is a 3rd gen tank and the in presence of AK-1 Haider is another 3 gen tank program

- AK-1 program is now discontinued after 110 tanks (not sure about the number last time when I checked this was the number)

- Capability to manufacture Turret and Hull is already available in HIT, but advance ERA, Targeting sights, engine & transmission were the areas where HIT was either struggling or have no capabilities.

- After Russian & Ukrainian availability of 6-TD 2 is questionable which could effect the continuity of AK-1 program

- HIT in past was in the process of indigenous R&D for AK-2 which was then cancelled in favor of HAIDER TANK program.

So based on these publicly available information we could assume a theory that

- Haider is tank manufacturing program which is utilizing already existing in-house facilities and capabilities of tank manufacturing addressing some or all of the shortcomings whit the application of TOT we have received under VT-4 program

 

[Jayetsena]

As of now no solid evidence but press release indicates that

- Haider is 3 gen tank while VT-4 is +3 gen tank, we have to keep this in our mind

- We already know that AK-1 is a 3rd gen tank and the in presence of AK-1 Haider is another 3 gen tank program

- AK-1 program is now discontinued after 110 tanks (not sure about the number last time when I checked this was the number)

- Capability to manufacture Turret and Hull is already available in HIT, but advance ERA, Targeting sights, engine & transmission were the areas where HIT was either struggling or have no capabilities.

- After Russian & Ukrainian availability of 6-TD 2 is questionable which could effect the continuity of AK-1 program

- HIT in past was in the process of indigenous R&D for AK-2 which was then cancelled in favor of HAIDER TANK program.

So based on these publicly available information we could assume a theory that

- Haider is tank manufacturing program which is utilizing already existing in-house facilities and capabilities of tank manufacturing addressing some or all of the shortcomings whit the application of TOT we have received under VT-4 program

Thanks for the explanation, does this endeavor includes step up efforts for indigenization?? Or just getting ToT on engines and other imported items??

 

[HRK]

Thanks for the explanation, does this endeavor includes step up efforts for indigenization?? Or just getting ToT on engines and other imported items??

Currently no information is available in public domain, but in recent past during VT-4 negotiations, there was rumour that Pakistan was negotiating for the TOT of VT-4 engines, same is the case with ERA TOT

 

[iron shrapnel]

T

The situation with ERA is the same as with the PL-15 complaints .”Nazar nahin aate”

Even though they are an add on kit which just like those missiles and unless needed operationally are kept off.

Hull blocks are missing but they are using front turret ones... I guess they would only use them in full operational deployment.

 

[Tank131]

But Quwa says different. He writes hit imported major parts of tanks from china.and for jf-17, Pakistan is just a partner.all the research was done by china.even paf is not allowed to use a western radar on block-3 cos china didn’t give permission.and the so-called 60% parts you made also because of chinese help.but the main fuselage, radar,fbw all are from china.so,stop egoistic behaviour when everything yours come from china.

So while much of the tank is assembled from Kits, there is likely some level of internal manufacturing based on ToT from China. That said, its likely not much.

As for JF-17,the design house was chinese but there was a large contingent of Pakistani engineers working under the chinese, but ostensibly yes, it is a chinese jet. That said, manufacturing of 60% of the airframe (not just the assembly) happens in Pakistan. That however, is misunderstood by many Pakistani because the sheet metal, piping and minor electronics are one thing, but China has kept many critical components to be made itself so that Pakistan has to remain a client in this aircraft production. PAC often has to by entire supply kits just to get a few select components out of it for the assembly process. This way china makes them spend more money on components they dont need, in order to get the components they do, rather than selling components to PAC ala carte.

With respect to the radar, what you said is inaccurate. Pakistan can fit any radar it selects, including western radars, BUT the issue is weapons integration. There is a reason that Grifo E was on offer and being discussed. The issue is PAF had no access to western weapons, specifically western BVRAAM (AMRAAM, MICA), let alone LRBVRAAM (like Meteor) to replace SD-10 and in the future (potentially) PL-15. There was no way China was going to provide source codes to a NATO country or even unreliable Pakistan, allow for integration of its missiles into a western radar. There was also no way Italy/Leonardo was going to allow China the ability to integrate its weapons into a western radar. So for PAF the problem became, get the western radar and be toothless vs stick with China.

 

[Oscar]

View attachment 25693
Hull blocks are missing but they are using front turret ones... I guess they would only use them in full operational deployment.

Sometimes that could be the operational use case depending upon what is required. In many cases it is possible that the turret ones are either less prone to environmental damage due to where they are or they are a bit more of a headache to take off and put on.

ERAs have weight too -

 

[studsmart]

Does this mean that after 670+ VT4 production, PA will switch to Haider Tank?

 

[Admiral General Aladin]

So while much of the tank is assembled from Kits, there is likely some level of internal manufacturing based on ToT from China. That said, its likely not much.

As for JF-17,the design house was chinese but there was a large contingent of Pakistani engineers working under the chinese, but ostensibly yes, it is a chinese jet. That said, manufacturing of 60% of the airframe (not just the assembly) happens in Pakistan. That however, is misunderstood by many Pakistani because the sheet metal, piping and minor electronics are one thing, but China has kept many critical components to be made itself so that Pakistan has to remain a client in this aircraft production. PAC often has to by entire supply kits just to get a few select components out of it for the assembly process. This way china makes them spend more money on components they dont need, in order to get the components they do, rather than selling components to PAC ala carte.

With respect to the radar, what you said is inaccurate. Pakistan can fit any radar it selects, including western radars, BUT the issue is weapons integration. There is a reason that Grifo E was on offer and being discussed. The issue is PAF had no access to western weapons, specifically western BVRAAM (AMRAAM, MICA), let alone LRBVRAAM (like Meteor) to replace SD-10 and in the future (potentially) PL-15. There was no way China was going to provide source codes to a NATO country or even unreliable Pakistan, allow for integration of its missiles into a western radar. There was also no way Italy/Leonardo was going to allow China the ability to integrate its weapons into a western radar. So for PAF the problem became, get the western radar and be toothless vs stick with China.

NOW that's how a sensible person should talk.unlike others.but the main thing is what i had said is true.you just describe it briefly.and it is really not good for Pakistan to rely heavily on chinese.and when it comes to weapon integration, PAC can't even integrate weapons on jf-17 without chinese help.and yes.it is true.Pakistan needs to her young educated people to part of her defence industry, should not rely on only defence personal

 

[Admiral General Aladin]

60 of JF-17 parts are now produced in Pakistan and most parts of Haider Tanks are also being produced in Pakistan. The weapon systems which we get from China we don't just assemble them. When we say TOT from Turkey and China that means TOT. We produce most parts.

Why don’t you specifically mention which vt-4 parts Pakistan produce?or locally sourced? And for jf-17, try to integrate any non-chinese weapons without chinese permission.chinese will show you where your actual place is.

 

[Admiral General Aladin]

@Quwa is right here -

Stop trying to educate us what Pakistan does and doesn’t do - the JF-17’s entire man machine interface was based on Pakistani requirements with Pakistani engineers sitting alongside Chinese ones in Chengdu.

Now the thread is on Haider - stick to that.

bro.stop repeating Pakistani engineers going here and there.why don’t you go and ask the engineers who stayed in china and turkey about what kind of help they offer towards making chinese and Turkey's jet?

 

[Oscar]

bro.stop repeating Pakistani engineers going here and there.why don’t you go and ask the engineers who stayed in china and turkey about what kind of help they offer towards making chinese and Turkey's jet?

What do I need to ask them?
For the JF-17 the engineers were involved in supporting the main design team - acting as supplemental manpower and in terms of cockpit design providing all the requirements, UX wireframing and so on.

I don’t work in Pakistani R&D anymore - I don’t know what they’re doing in Turkey in detail.

Either way - is thread is on Haider and you have your answer. Good day

 

[Oscar]

Why don’t you specifically mention which vt-4 parts Pakistan produce?or locally sourced? And for jf-17, try to integrate any non-chinese weapons without chinese permission.chinese will show you where your actual place is.

Already done - read about Aselpod and RAAD and stop derailing the thread . Again, you are a condescending piece of work pretending to be from Bangladesh through VPN wasting our time.

Banned from thread.

 

[GriffinsRule]

It says "indigenously manufactured" But with China. What it means??

Means replace indigenously with locally

 

[KingQamaR]

Did we opt for 1500hp engine in the VT-4? I am wondering if they had the engine changed or not. Thanks , anyone.

 

[Zarvan]

Why don’t you specifically mention which vt-4 parts Pakistan produce?or locally sourced? And for jf-17, try to integrate any non-chinese weapons without chinese permission.chinese will show you where your actual place is.

We already have integrated several non Chinese weapons with JF 17. Dude we are even going to do with J 10 C. For JF 17 we have all the source codes to integrate non Chinese weapons. Please grow up and come out of your bubble of delusions and dreams.