Bangladesh Air Force

[Yasser76]

Actually size of Bangladesh will not be an issue..... if you look at Isreal then Bangladesh is actually 4 to 5 times bigger geographically compared to Israel and israel is surrounded by much larger hostile neighbors like Jordan and Egypt (armed to teeth) and Syria...... still they have a solid defense....

It's not size it's doctrine what matters..... if Bangladesh has to overcome of it's smaller size compared to India or Burma then it has to adopt offensive doctrine and preempt these countries..... Typhoon if they are successful in bringing it will be a nightmare for it's both neighbors if they have offensive doctrine.....

BD is no Israel. Also, US has ensured Israel faces no serious BVR threat. There is a reason Egyptian F-16s are toothless

 

[Afif]

If BD completes purchase of EFT + Meteor then IAF raffles can be countered.

BD actually have a fairly good radar setup, so we do have a good situational awareness of enemy aircrafts outside our border.

Main issue do not have much to counter them.

SAM strategy as you suggest is a no brainer but our military seems to sleeping on the job.

Its not that.

They are just incompetent business oriented buffons.

I beg to differ. It is not as much about incompetence as you may think. Right now we simply don't have the money for it.

From the 2021 deal signed with Roketsan, Army should start getting delivery of HISAR O+ batteries from this year. (Or next year)

After that they will likely to focus on Long range ehigh altitude air defence system. IMO, opinion by 2030 if they can manage to raise 4x MRSAM Regiments (HISAR O+ batteries) & 1x LRSAM Regiment (I prefer SAMP/T NG. If not, then SIPER block II) It would be decent enough in my book.

 

[mb444]

It is suicide. You have a small country surrounded almost completely by a larger neighbour. Any air to air confrontations will be very short and end up in the IAF's favour. That is no detriment to the skill and efficiency of BAF or it's equipment. Would happen to any force in a similar situation.

Better use of long and medium range SAMs, deny any IAF aircraft ability to operate

Well yes... SAMs is the countermeasures that we need to deploy. Unfortunately do not have much of that either.

The point is BDs size in of itself is not that big a deal

 

[mb444]

@Quwa Yes, if only BAF was competence and innovative enough for out of the box thinking and a new reform.

In an Ideal condition, 24x Gripen for more or less $3 billion would've been a better choice than 16 Eurofighter.

Sweden’s Saab Pitches Gripen Fighter Aircraft To India At “Half The Price Paid For Rafale”

Price war unleashed ahead of IAF’s mega global competition, pitting 125 Mn Euro Gripen against 216 Mn Euro Rafale , , defence deals, defence, Saab Group

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1. We could make two squadron with independent operational sctrucutre. Permanently assigned them at two different air bases (preferably at Dhaka and Chottogram)

2. And at war time we could easily disperse them at multiple bases and airfields. (Enhancing the survivability of the platform and increasing the operational flexibility, in the meantime maintaining the qualitative advantage with gripen)

However, what we are talking about above would require doctrinal changes not only for the BAF, but also for all warfighting forces across the spectrum.
Bacause in reality such single engine fighter would only be best suited for A2A or A2G/A2S missions at once per individual sorties.

A2A loadout With a single fuel tank under the main fuselage (like the picture below) to increase flight hour/airborne time for CAP.

Or like this one for mainly A2G

Even though gripen technically can perform both A2A and A2G in single sortie but it is practically insufficient for a single engine light fighter. (As it won't be able to maintain 4 BVR missiles while performing dual mission in single sortie) Especially when we are planning to go against numerically superior adversary while relying only on the qualitative age.

However, when it comes to the Eurofighter, it can effectively carry out both A2A A2G mission in a single sortie somewhat sufficiently thanks to its twin engine and 14 hard point.

Changing those two fuel tanks under the wing with two NSM/JSM or scalp while adding one under the main fuselage (like the picture below)

And this is advantageous considering our Numerical limitation.

For example, in case of a conflict with Mayanmar two BAF typhoon can take off and perform deep strike/Anti ship strike while simultaneously be completely ready for CAP and A2A engagement with over the bay of bengal or at our south-eastern airspace, all in relative sufficiency in a single sortie.


Also, after receiving warning from our early warning radars about approaching potential enemy aircrafts, it is tactically time critical to climb up to the higher altitude (Typhoon can climb up to 9000 meters in 60 seconds) given our uncomfortably small Airspace and lack of strategic depth.
Specially when we will deploy some of the fighters at Chottogram or Cox bazar. And twin engine jet, more specifically Eurofighter is very ideal for that.

Unlike Gripen which has quite a low thrust to weight ratio.


So, in a nutshell with single engine fighter BAF A2G/A2S strike capability would become limited, as they would likely to require proper A2A escorts in highly contested airspace.

If we want BAF to become a dedicated force for airspace denial role with single engine platforms, ( which would be a very sound strategy considering all the aspects ) that would require a revaluation of army and navy's dependency on BAF for deep strike and anti ship missions.

Hence the question is, can they achieve those without too much dependency on BAF?

I would say yes, specially for navy. Our new frigates+new submarines ( +preferably 2/3 costal batteries ) would be sufficient enough even without air forces A2S support.

However, for army that would be more complicated.
But in my opinion, we should invest heavily in type-A (like khan) and type-b MLRS (like TRG-300) capabilities to strike targets behind enemy lines. (similar to how Ukraine did)

And this is how BAF can rightfully focus on its main strategic objective, which would be Airspace denial.

However, it would require doctrinal changes across the all spectrum. Which is unlikely to happen.

EFT is the best fit for BD to go against Raffles.

EFT with higher service ceiling merely needs to wait and pick off the raffles (obviously its more complicated than that) From a defensive perspective it is the best fit for us..... meteor vs meteor EFT over raffles at all time with all other things being equal.

Obviously if BD can not defend its bases, continue to have negligible AD capacity, not have a good reserve of SAMs etc EFT on their own wont make that much of a difference.

 

[Pingle]

BD is no Israel. Also, US has ensured Israel faces no serious BVR threat. There is a reason Egyptian F-16s are toothless

Here I agree with you..... actually USA saw in 1973 what Egypt is capable off and since then they have always taken care to maintain Isreal's EDGE in the region......

 

[Afif]

It is suicide. You have a small country surrounded almost completely by a larger neighbour. Any air to air confrontations will be very short and end up in the IAF's favour. That is no detriment to the skill and efficiency of BAF or it's equipment. Would happen to any force in a similar situation.

Nope, you have a poor understanding of BVR A2A engagement and the counter-air context in Bangladesh-India's geography.

First of all,

You could pretty much hit any aircraft flying in BD with Meteor from safe inside India.

This is False, Meteor has NEZ of 60km officially. Unofficially, upto 90km.

The only way to shoot down BAF fighters over Dhaka is from the East from Tripuran airspace. Other than that from West, North & South (from bay of Bengal) the distances are from 150-190km.

IAF's No. 101 squadron (Falcons) equipped with Rafale is stationed at Hasimara airbase. Which is located in Alipurduar district, West Bengal.


For Rafale to shoot down BAF fighters from outside of the Bangladeshi airspace it has to fly across the Assam. Which is impractical.

To shoot down anything over Dhaka and in the surrounding, from West, North & the South IAF aircrafts has to enter BD airspace deep into 30-60km.


Additionally, BAF has been building up a sophisticated network of Early warning system. Previously, it procured Selex RAT-31LD AESA serveillance radar that has detection range of 450km+ against 1m RCS targets.

From where it is stationed currently It can see upto 200km deep into Indian airspace in the West & upto 300km deep in the East.

Recently bought 6x mobile Kronos Land AESA radars from Leonardo are an important force multiplier in this regard.

Which has an effective range of 250km and can be deployed anywhere very rapidly. Additionally, Army is planning to procure 2x GM400 AESA serveillance radar from Thales which are mobile and has a longer range of 450km. (Against 1m RCS targets)

Here is a Map of IAF Eastern command air bases.



Unless it is a 5th gen LO platform, anything takes off from these air bases will be picked up by our Early warning systems before they reach our airspace. (Unless flying ultra low and using terrain masking in Meghalayan mountains. But that has its own downside) and our interceptors can take off accordingly.

 

[Pingle]

Nope, you have a poor understanding of BVR A2A engagement and the counter-air context in Bangladesh-India's geography.

First of all,



This is False, Meteor has NEZ of 60km officially. Unofficially, upto 90km.

The only way to shoot down BAF fighters over Dhaka is from the East from Tripuran airspace. Other than that from West, North & South (from bay of Bengal) the distances are from 150-190km.

IAF's No. 101 squadron (Falcons) equipped with Rafale is stationed at Hasimara airbase. Which is located in Alipurduar district, West Bengal.


For Rafale to shoot down BAF fighters from outside of the Bangladeshi airspace it has to fly across the Assam. Which is impractical.

To shoot down anything over Dhaka and in the surrounding, from West, North & the South IAF aircrafts has to enter BD airspace deep into 30-60km.


Additionally, BAF has been building up a sophisticated network of Early warning system. Previously, it procured Selex RAT-31LD AESA serveillance radar that has detection range of 450km+ against 1m RCS targets.

From where it is stationed currently It can see upto 200km deep into Indian airspace in the West & upto 300km deep in the East.

Recently bought 6x mobile Kronos Land AESA radars from Leonardo are an important force multiplier in this regard.

Which has an effective range of 250km and can be deployed anywhere very rapidly. Additionally, Army is planning to procure 2x GM400 AESA serveillance radar from Thales which are mobile and has a longer range of 450km. (Against 1m RCS targets)

Here is a Map of IAF Eastern command air bases.

View attachment 13336

Unless it is a 5th gen LO platform, anything takes off from these air bases will be picked up by our Early warning systems before they reach our airspace. (Unless flying ultra low and using terrain masking in Meghalayan mountains. But that has its own downside) and our interceptors can take off accordingly.

Good reply but you too underestimating IAF flankers and Rafale capabilities to sneak deep inside..... even Mirage 2000s can do that to jeopardize your response time..... do you seriously believe IAF fighters would not be asked to go beyond actual BVR NEZ and allow BAF to to operate in it's own safety??

if you get TYPHOONS with full package it will be a threat for sure but for that you need offensive doctrine and guts to preempt your enemies like Israel..... if you don't have that then even F35 can't save you as thanjavar based flanker squadron can take out all F35s on the ground itself......

 

[Afif]

Good reply but you too underestimating IAF flankers and Rafale capabilities to sneak deep inside.....

I am not. Bangladesh's terrain is totally flat. Nothing getting deep without being picked up. Definitely not the Flankers, which has an rcs of 10m² or something.

Besides, seeing how poorly Russian super flanker performed in Ukraine war, I am not gonna put much faith in them.

do you seriously believe IAF fighters would not be asked to go beyond actual BVR NEZ and allow BAF to to operate in it's own safety??

What you mean? IAF will try to shoot down all BAF assets as soon as possible.

if you don't have that then even F35 can't save you as thanjavar based flanker squadron can take out all F35s on the ground itself......

Not necessarily, A capable air defence system can shoot down flankers and anything they launch from stand off distance. Bigger problem is if India started fire Agni prime or similar class ballistic missiles at our airbases.

if you get TYPHOONS with full package it will be a threat for sure

IAF has bigger problem than BAF Typhoons in a (theoretically) full scale war with BD.

 

[Pingle]

I am not. Bangladesh's terrain is totally flat. Nothing getting deep without being picked up. Definitely not the Flankers, which has an rcs of 10m² or something.

Okay it has rcs as per you say and you have radar coverage to pick up, what does BAF have in kitty to actually stop flankers after that???

Besides, seeing how poorly Russian super flanker performed in Ukraine war, I am not gonna put much faith in them.

You are comparing yourself with Ukraine who is getting all state of art weapons with NATO Intel? Are you seriously expecting this favor to BD against India? And Ukraine still has a solid history being a part of ex Soviet Union very familiar with Russian equipments and apart from this they have full NATO support..... BD will not have this luxury.....

What you mean? IAF will try to shoot down all BAF assets as soon as possible.

Yes this is what I am saying.... NEZ or that space will not be available in full fledged war.... IAF will sneak deep inside with ease.....

Not necessarily, A capable air defence system can shoot down flankers and anything they launch from stand off distance. Bigger problem is if India started fire Agni prime or similar class ballistic missiles at our airbases.

You don't have any capable air defence system right now and do you seriously believe India needs Agni prime type missiles for Bangladesh??

Few IAF sorties over your skies and 3 to 5 warships and submarines sitting in Bob will be enough to raise you as a gentleman.....

IAF has bigger problem than BAF Typhoons in a (theoretically) full scale war with BD.

That is agreed

 

[Yasser76]

Nope, you have a poor understanding of BVR A2A engagement and the counter-air context in Bangladesh-India's geography.

First of all,



This is False, Meteor has NEZ of 60km officially. Unofficially, upto 90km.

The only way to shoot down BAF fighters over Dhaka is from the East from Tripuran airspace. Other than that from West, North & South (from bay of Bengal) the distances are from 150-190km.

IAF's No. 101 squadron (Falcons) equipped with Rafale is stationed at Hasimara airbase. Which is located in Alipurduar district, West Bengal.


For Rafale to shoot down BAF fighters from outside of the Bangladeshi airspace it has to fly across the Assam. Which is impractical.

To shoot down anything over Dhaka and in the surrounding, from West, North & the South IAF aircrafts has to enter BD airspace deep into 30-60km.


Additionally, BAF has been building up a sophisticated network of Early warning system. Previously, it procured Selex RAT-31LD AESA serveillance radar that has detection range of 450km+ against 1m RCS targets.

From where it is stationed currently It can see upto 200km deep into Indian airspace in the West & upto 300km deep in the East.

Recently bought 6x mobile Kronos Land AESA radars from Leonardo are an important force multiplier in this regard.

Which has an effective range of 250km and can be deployed anywhere very rapidly. Additionally, Army is planning to procure 2x GM400 AESA serveillance radar from Thales which are mobile and has a longer range of 450km. (Against 1m RCS targets)

Here is a Map of IAF Eastern command air bases.

View attachment 13336

Unless it is a 5th gen LO platform, anything takes off from these air bases will be picked up by our Early warning systems before they reach our airspace. (Unless flying ultra low and using terrain masking in Meghalayan mountains. But that has its own downside) and our interceptors can take off accordingly.

You claim I have a "poor understanding" and in the next few paragraphs of your post you actually go on to contradict yourself....

IAF has many more wartime dispersal airbases then the main air bases you can see on a map. Anyone with an "understanding " of modern air warfare knows this.

IAF can easily fly across Assam, in a plane like Rafale this is not "impractical" at all, and if it means gaining an element of surprise any air force worth it's salt would try and gain such advantage.

IAF will do it's best to jam all BD radars and indeed will be flying very low level, again, easy to do in a Rafale or Mirage 2000. Response times will be measured in seconds, not minutes.

Furthermore thanks to AWACS IAF will have a complete air picture of BD, the entire country.

Any air defence in modern warfare of such a small country completely surrounded is an exercise in futility....

 

[Afif]

Okay it has rcs as per you say and you have radar coverage to pick up, what does BAF have in kitty to actually stop flankers after that???

Again we are talking about hypothetical scenarios where BAF has procured those Typhoon and has 2/3 Regiments of LRSAM. (As I mentioned SAMP/T or SIPER)

You are comparing yourself with Ukraine who is getting all state of art weapons with NATO Intel? Are you seriously expecting this favor to BD against India? And Ukraine still has a solid history being a part of ex Soviet Union very familiar with Russian equipments and apart from this they have full NATO support..... BD will not have this luxury.....

You didn't comprehend. I am not comparing Ukraine with BD.

I only described Flanker's performance. Which was incredibly poor against only 2x old batteries of patriot.

Yes this is what I am saying.... NEZ or that space will not be available in full fledged war.... IAF will sneak deep inside with ease.....

I suspect you don't understand what NEZ even is.

You don't have any capable air defence system right now and do you seriously believe India needs Agni prime type missiles for Bangladesh??

That is right. India won't need Agni prime now. That is why I said if BD has capable LRSAM like SAMP/T.

Otherwise, It won't.

Few IAF sorties over your skies and 3 to 5 warships and submarines sitting in Bob will be enough to raise you as a gentleman.....

So far, I didn't insult you directly or indirectly. So, let's keep it civil shall we?

 

[Afif]

You claim I have a "poor understanding" and in the next few paragraphs of your post you actually go on to contradict yourself....

IAF has many more wartime dispersal airbases then the main air bases you can see on a map. Anyone with an "understanding " of modern air warfare knows this.

Don't make general claim without providing source. Beside, my map include civilian airport that IAF could potentially operate from in the region.

You claim I have a "poor understanding" and in the next few paragraphs of your post you actually go on to contradict yourself....

Nope I didn't . I said, you can only hit anyhinng inside BD from India if BAF aircraft flying over Dhaka and Rafale in Tripuran airspace. That is a very specific scenario. You said-

You could pretty much hit any aircraft flying in BD with Meteor from safe inside India.

And that is again false.

Because you can not pretty much hit any aircraft inside BD that is flying in other places. Like say in the south over barishal airspace.

Any air defence in modern warfare of such a small country completely surrounded is an exercise in futility....

Absurd and false.

 

[Arthur]

I agree with @Afif opinion. BAF's focus should be on Air denial.

And that require a combination of Aircraft & SAM based AD.

TBH I strongly believe neither Typhoon nor Raffle properly fits Bangladesh's defence need.

The critical threat for BAF do not come from enemy aircraft’s rather from enemy standoff strike (cruise& ballistic missile, land or air launched)

So a doctrine cratered around dispersed operation in break of hostilities suits us perfectly.

I am stromg supporter of Gripen for this very reason.

Also one big missing part in our discussion always was how we integrate and utilise the vast air space over Bay of Bengal.

If there is any sign of hostilities, BAF can deploy CAP over BOB with standoff & BVR attack capability, supported by AWACS & MPA aircraft’s. These will be assets way out of the reach for our immediate adversaries.

This is where strong surface and air denial capacity for BN comes into play.

 

[Pingle]

Again we are talking about hypothetical scenarios where BAF has procured those Typhoon and has 2/3 Regiments of LRSAM. (As I mentioned SAMP/T or SIPER)

In that case also Typhoons though a threat can be easily outnumbered with Flanker-Fulcrum combination supported by Awacs..... I guess even if Bangladesh goes for Typhoons number may not go above 16..... for LRSAM we have many options from drones to stand off munitions to Brahmos and storm shadow missiles.....

You didn't comprehend. I am not comparing Ukraine with BD.

I only described Flanker's performance. Which was incredibly poor against only 2x old batteries of patriot.

It's not the case western media is not telling the full story..... Russians are forced to use Flankers many times for ground attack where they have to fly low and in doing so they are getting targeted easily..... it's for air superiority not for ground attacks and not to mention Ukraine getting robust NATO support......

I suspect you don't understand what NEZ even is.

I understand but if you think that just because you have few Typhoons in hand IAF won't dare to strike deep inside and prefer to use stand off weapons then you are seriously underestimating IAF......

That is right. India won't need Agni prime now. That is why I said if BD has capable LRSAM like SAMP/T.

Otherwise, It won't.

Even if you have SAMP/T type system India will try to deal with cruise missiles or with stand off munitions or simply directly close your shipping lines in BoB and force you to negotiate..... Agni prime is not at all required.....

So far, I didn't insult you directly or indirectly. So, let's keep it civil shall we?

Agreed and sorry for my that post

 

[Afif]

In that case also Typhoons though a threat can be easily outnumbered with Flanker-Fulcrum combination supported by Awacs..... I guess even if Bangladesh goes for Typhoons number may not go above 16.....

That is why I said earlier, IAF has bigger problem than Typhoon. Because i don't think 16 Typhoon going to stablish air superiority against IAF.

for LRSAM we have many options from drones to stand off munitions to Brahmos and storm shadow missiles.....

Russia has all those similar options. and in some cases better ones. (P-800 superosnoic, K101 stealthy cruise missile. Kaliber, quasi balistic missiles like Iskander. So called 'hypersonic' Kinzal.) And they didn't even hasitate to use them in wave after wave. Yet two old patriot batteries are still standing. That is why I am so fond of Western systems in general. Let's see if BD can get 2/3 SAMP/T.

I understand but if you think that just because you have few Typhoons in hand IAF won't dare to strike deep inside and prefer to use stand off weapons then you are seriously underestimating IAF......

Well, I don't think that. As I said 1x squadron typhoon won't deter IAF.

simply directly close your shipping lines in BoB and force you to negotiate..... Agni prime is not at all required.....

Yes, I see blockade of BoB a big deal. And we can't match Indian navy with ship numbers. That is why i think AIP subs are important. Which give assymetic advantage against bigger adversary. If you look at navy's official plan they intend to procure 4 More new sub by 2030. Let's see if they can get it.



One very important thing you need to keep in mind, in real life it is never going to be India's all might vs Bangladesh's capability.

Due to the two nuclear armed expansionist adversaries (China & Pak) on its borders, in any realistic scenario India can only spare around 1/4 of it total air & ground assets to attack Bangladesh in any given time. More than that would upset the balance in the western front (with Pak) and in the northern front (China)

The existence of neighbors like China and Pakistan and their expansionist ambition coupled with their massive air force and army is a very important factor in this context.