Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions
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FuturePAF
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
With the tech on the 6th gen fighter demonstrator, it would be interesting to see if the J-20 design will be modified (such as removing the canards and changing the Tails and wing), once the 2D TVC and WS-15 are up to expected performance specs.
iblini
Trusted Member
they would surely not do that, that is no different than making a new plane.
FuturePAF
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Sure it would technically be a new design, but wouldn’t it be seen as a better design for the PLAAF to switch to, as the tech has matured, and wouldn’t be that far from the current J-20 design.
A design similar to the planned GCAP design.
Three team for Tempest combat aircraft company
BAE Systems, Leonardo, and JAIEC in Japan are to form a joint venture to develop and build the Tempest Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP)
www.eenewseurope.com
Last edited:
iblini
Trusted Member
That's a disaster for project management.Sure it would technically be a new design, but wouldn’t it be seen as a better design for the PLAAF to switch to, as the tech has matured. A design similar to the planned GCAP design.
Three team for Tempest combat aircraft company
BAE Systems, Leonardo, and JAIEC in Japan are to form a joint venture to develop and build the Tempest Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP)
FuturePAF
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Possibly, but it doesn’t have to be if the Shenyang Lamba wing and tail arrangement can be implement on the J-20 version sooner than 2030-2035.
If the current expected production run of the J-20 is suppose a 1000, then the PLAAF will have a design that will need to be supplanted with a 6th gen design in 2040.
You’re probably right. It’s very ambitious and risky. But it does point to how quickly China has caught up to world class firms.
SolarWarden
Trusted Member
Oh puhleeze. Let me know when it can be used as an offensive EW and Cyber warfare.
-LANGLEY AFB: If you want to stop a conversation about the F-35 with a military officer or industry expert, then just start talking about its cyber or electronic warfare capabilities.
These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.
So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.
Want To Shoot Someone? Turn Off The Cyber
Then he brings us back to the issue at hand, and mentions the Air Force’s Red Flag exercises, the pinnacle of the service’s force-on-force training: “Fast forward to today. We do Red Flag for the purpose of giving our young wingman those first 10 days of combat, or first 10 combat missions in a controlled environment because what we’ve studied over the years of conflict is the first 10 missions are where you’re most likely to lose your fleet. So if you can replicate that first 10 in a controlled environment with a very high degree of fidelity, you’ve greatly increased the probability that they’re going to survive their actual first 10 combat missions. So Red Flag is the closest we can get to real combat without actually shooting people.”
Allies are a key part of the Red Flag exercises, especially as the F-35 becomes the plane flown by most of our closest allies, from Britain to Israel to Australia and beyond. But the toughest, most realistic exercises at Red Flag occur when it’s only American pilots flying against each other.
During those Red Flag-3 exercises they integrate space and cyber weapons into the fight, including those the F-35 possesses. Those capabilities make are “so effective that we have to be very careful that in a real world scenario we don’t hurt ourselves allowing them to play.”
Then he gets back to the point at hand. “So, to answer your question, it has tremendous capability. We’re in the early stages of exploring how to get the most effectiveness out of cyber and space, but we’re integrating it into the Air Operations Center; we’re integrating it into the combat plan; and it is absolutely the way of the future. And you’re right, the AESA radar has tremendous capacity to play in that game.”
Boil all that down and it comes to this. Gen. Hostage is saying that the F-35’s cyber capabilities are so effective — combined with space assets, which are often difficult to distinguish in effect from cyber capabilities — that the planes have to stop using them so the pilots can shoot at each other.
The obvious question that arises from this is, how can a radar system also be a cyber weapon? We’ve all seen those World War II movies where the radar dish sweeps back and forth. The energy beams out, strikes the enemy plane and comes back as a blip. What makes an AESA radar special is the fact that it beams energy in digital zeroes and ones — and the beam can be focused. This allows the radar to function as both a scanning radar, a cyber weapon and an electronic warfare tool.
AESA Radar, Cyber And IADS
Here’s an excellent explanation for how we go from radio and radar and military systems that are not connected to the Internet yet remain vulnerable to hacking that I’ve cribbed from my deputy, Sydney Freedberg, from a recent piece he wrote in Breaking Defense about cyberwar. An enemy’s radios and radars are run by computers, so you can transmit signals to hack them. If the enemy’s computers are linked together then your virus can spread throughout that network. The enemy does not have to be connected to the Internet. You just need the enemy’s radios and radar to receive incoming signals – which they have to do in order to function.
So, as a former top intelligence official explained to me about two years ago, the AESA radar’s beams can throw out those zeros and ones to ANY sort of receiver. And an enemy’s radar is a receiver. His radios are receivers. Some of his electronic warfare sensors are also receivers.
But neither Hostage nor many others I spoke with were willing to be specific on the record about how effective the AESA radar, working with the aircraft’s sensors like the Distributed Aperture System and its data fusion system, will be. So the following is information culled from conversations over the last three months with a wide range of knowledgeable people inside government and the defense industry, as well as retired military and intelligence officers.
As the F-35 flies toward the Chinese coast and several hundred incoming PLAAF J-20s streak toward them in the scenario outlined in the first piece of this series, spoofing (using the enemy’s own systems to deceive him) will be a major part of our attack.
Enemy radar may well show thousands of F-35s and other aircraft heading their way, with stealth cross-sections that appear to match what the Chinese believe is the F-35’s cross section. Only a few hundred of them are real, but the Chinese can’t be certain which are which, forcing them to waste long-range missiles and forcing them to get closer to the US and allied F-35s so they can tell with greater fidelity which ones are real. The Chinese will try and use Infrared Search and Track (IRST) sensors, which have shorter ranges but provide tremendous fidelity in the right weather conditions. But that, of course, renders them more vulnerable to one sensor on the F-35 that even the plane’s critics rarely criticize, the Distributed Aperture System (DAS).
'A God's Eye View Of The Battlefield:' Gen. Hostage On The F-35 - Breaking Defense
For years, the news about the most expensive conventional weapons system in US history, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, has been driven by its enormous cost, design, and schedule screw-ups. The Pentagon and Congress and the public have rarely spoken about what the F-35 would do, how effectively...
breakingdefense.com
Don't ever compare your celestial military tech equal to US military tech. Celestials are nowhere near the same league as US. Btw APG-85 which is many times more advanced than APG-81 will enter service this year in Lot 17 F-35's.
Celestial fighter radar still has a long way to go to reach APG-81 capabilities and that radar is 20 years old celestials can forget reaching APG-85 capabilities for foreseeable future.
iblini
Trusted Member
they will just make steady upgrade and putting all resources and focuses on J36/J50.
Michael
VIP Member
GaN technology is very common in China and is widely used in both military and civilian fields.
The main PLAAF fighters in service (J-20/J-16/J-15T/J-10C/J-35A) all use GaN AESA radars. Some of the older fighters (J-11B/J-10B) have also been modified with GaN AESA radars.
Most of the other radars that can be retrofitted and newly commissioned (ground radars, AWACS, warships, etc.) also use GaN AESA radars.
I don't know if this is considered large.
China and Europe, the concept of combat is completely different. This leads to their design ideas for weapons being completely different.
European countries are very limited in terms of the size of their countries. This includes their defense budgets, industrial capacity, etc. Industrial capacity here refers to the size of the industry, and they are still technologically strong.
Therefore, their idea of weapon design is usually to combine more functions and technologies in a small or medium-sized weapon. They want a fighter jet or a warship to be able to accomplish more tasks at the same time. ------ They particularly emphasize the multi-mission capability of their weapons.
This is completely different from the thinking of the militaries of large countries such as China, the United States and Russia.
The J-20's role in the PLAAF system is to “kick in the door”. Its mission is accomplished when it opens the enemy's door. It does not undertake battlefield strike and cleanup missions.
This thinking determines its design. This design thinking determines its shape.
China will refer to European weapon detail technology, but not European tactical thinking. ------ China's foreign trade weapons will take into account European tactical thinking.
Hendarto
Registered Member
Well, here is the spec for APG 81 ONLY 150 km ?Oh puhleeze. Let me know when it can be used as an offensive EW and Cyber warfare.
-LANGLEY AFB: If you want to stop a conversation about the F-35 with a military officer or industry expert, then just start talking about its cyber or electronic warfare capabilities.
These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.
So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.
Want To Shoot Someone? Turn Off The Cyber
Then he brings us back to the issue at hand, and mentions the Air Force’s Red Flag exercises, the pinnacle of the service’s force-on-force training: “Fast forward to today. We do Red Flag for the purpose of giving our young wingman those first 10 days of combat, or first 10 combat missions in a controlled environment because what we’ve studied over the years of conflict is the first 10 missions are where you’re most likely to lose your fleet. So if you can replicate that first 10 in a controlled environment with a very high degree of fidelity, you’ve greatly increased the probability that they’re going to survive their actual first 10 combat missions. So Red Flag is the closest we can get to real combat without actually shooting people.”
Allies are a key part of the Red Flag exercises, especially as the F-35 becomes the plane flown by most of our closest allies, from Britain to Israel to Australia and beyond. But the toughest, most realistic exercises at Red Flag occur when it’s only American pilots flying against each other.
During those Red Flag-3 exercises they integrate space and cyber weapons into the fight, including those the F-35 possesses. Those capabilities make are “so effective that we have to be very careful that in a real world scenario we don’t hurt ourselves allowing them to play.”
Then he gets back to the point at hand. “So, to answer your question, it has tremendous capability. We’re in the early stages of exploring how to get the most effectiveness out of cyber and space, but we’re integrating it into the Air Operations Center; we’re integrating it into the combat plan; and it is absolutely the way of the future. And you’re right, the AESA radar has tremendous capacity to play in that game.”
Boil all that down and it comes to this. Gen. Hostage is saying that the F-35’s cyber capabilities are so effective — combined with space assets, which are often difficult to distinguish in effect from cyber capabilities — that the planes have to stop using them so the pilots can shoot at each other.
The obvious question that arises from this is, how can a radar system also be a cyber weapon? We’ve all seen those World War II movies where the radar dish sweeps back and forth. The energy beams out, strikes the enemy plane and comes back as a blip. What makes an AESA radar special is the fact that it beams energy in digital zeroes and ones — and the beam can be focused. This allows the radar to function as both a scanning radar, a cyber weapon and an electronic warfare tool.
AESA Radar, Cyber And IADS
Here’s an excellent explanation for how we go from radio and radar and military systems that are not connected to the Internet yet remain vulnerable to hacking that I’ve cribbed from my deputy, Sydney Freedberg, from a recent piece he wrote in Breaking Defense about cyberwar. An enemy’s radios and radars are run by computers, so you can transmit signals to hack them. If the enemy’s computers are linked together then your virus can spread throughout that network. The enemy does not have to be connected to the Internet. You just need the enemy’s radios and radar to receive incoming signals – which they have to do in order to function.
So, as a former top intelligence official explained to me about two years ago, the AESA radar’s beams can throw out those zeros and ones to ANY sort of receiver. And an enemy’s radar is a receiver. His radios are receivers. Some of his electronic warfare sensors are also receivers.
But neither Hostage nor many others I spoke with were willing to be specific on the record about how effective the AESA radar, working with the aircraft’s sensors like the Distributed Aperture System and its data fusion system, will be. So the following is information culled from conversations over the last three months with a wide range of knowledgeable people inside government and the defense industry, as well as retired military and intelligence officers.
As the F-35 flies toward the Chinese coast and several hundred incoming PLAAF J-20s streak toward them in the scenario outlined in the first piece of this series, spoofing (using the enemy’s own systems to deceive him) will be a major part of our attack.
Enemy radar may well show thousands of F-35s and other aircraft heading their way, with stealth cross-sections that appear to match what the Chinese believe is the F-35’s cross section. Only a few hundred of them are real, but the Chinese can’t be certain which are which, forcing them to waste long-range missiles and forcing them to get closer to the US and allied F-35s so they can tell with greater fidelity which ones are real. The Chinese will try and use Infrared Search and Track (IRST) sensors, which have shorter ranges but provide tremendous fidelity in the right weather conditions. But that, of course, renders them more vulnerable to one sensor on the F-35 that even the plane’s critics rarely criticize, the Distributed Aperture System (DAS).
'A God's Eye View Of The Battlefield:' Gen. Hostage On The F-35 - Breaking Defense
For years, the news about the most expensive conventional weapons system in US history, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, has been driven by its enormous cost, design, and schedule screw-ups. The Pentagon and Congress and the public have rarely spoken about what the F-35 would do, how effectively...
Don't ever compare your celestial military tech equal to US military tech. Celestials are nowhere near the same league as US. Btw APG-85 which is many times more advanced than APG-81 will enter service this year in Lot 17 F-35's.
Celestial fighter radar still has a long way to go to reach APG-81 capabilities and that radar is 20 years old celestials can forget reaching APG-85 capabilities for foreseeable future.
The AN/APG-81 is an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar with the following specifications:
- Range: Over 150 km (93 miles)
- Antenna: 1,676 transmit/receive modules
- Capabilities: Air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, synthetic aperture radar (SAR), electronic warfare, and stealth features
- Electronic warfare: Electronic protection (EP), electronic attack (EA), and electronic support measures (ESM)
- Other features: Precision targeting, first look, first shot, and first engagement capability
- Design: Developed by Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II
- Origin: United States
F-35 Will Get New Radar Under Massive Upgrade Initiative (Updated)
The new AN/APG-85 advanced active electronically scanned array radar will be compatible with all variants of the new Block 4 F-35s.
www.twz.com
As for what the AN/APG-85 will bring to the table over its predecessor, we just don’t know. But there have been significant advances in AESA technology since the F-35 was designed. A Gallium Nitride (GaN)-based system is very likely to be a major facet of this improvement, which could drastically increase the F-35’s radar range and resolution. The radar’s ability to support more dynamic electronic warfare tactics would probably also be a key factor. Beyond these glaring probabilities, we can only imagine that a radar enhancement that demanded a new designation will have some pretty incredible tricks up its sleeve.
As it stands, the AN/APG-85 is just one of the many moving parts that make up the ongoing F-35 facelift, and it will be interesting to see how it integrates with the fleet now that we know the capability is real. It will be some time until then, as it seems the radar will be rolled out on the same timeline as Block 4, which is currently slated to wrap in 2029 after multiple delays, but The War Zone will certainly be keeping an eye out for developments in the meantime.
SolarWarden
Trusted Member
Honey those are just specs. Range specs for the aim-120d is 160km which it has been proven false since the aim-120d had a range test kill of 210+km. Same with Patriot Pac-2 it states its range at 160km but Ukraine has proven that aint the correct range when it took out the Russian AWACS much further away. US likes to underperform their weapon systems. Also that APG-81 spec came out before it entered service when it was thought to have 1200 T/R modules. Also what was the RCS claim of target? Other nation use bigger RCS targets to state their radar ranges. The APG-82V1 has 1500 T/R modules and has 180-200km range according to many sources.
The spec for APG 85 is still secret nobody know what exactly All of them are conjecture
Now, they plan to implement GaN in APG 85, but it has not yet been operational while China has hundred of this radar operational NOWF-35 Will Get New Radar Under Massive Upgrade Initiative (Updated)
The new AN/APG-85 advanced active electronically scanned array radar will be compatible with all variants of the new Block 4 F-35s.
No china doesn't have "hundred" GaN fighters operational. J-16 uses GaAs radars with GaN MMIC amps. And stop comparing celestial AESA radars to US they are not the same just because they are AESA doesn't mean celestial AESA perform close to US which we all know they don't. No celestial AESA including GaN can do what the APG-81 can do.
Lot 17 F-35's will enter service this year with APG-85 get that through your head.
-The F-35 JPO (Joint Program Office) also withheld payments, worth $7 million per jet, to Lockheed Martin while the company forfeited $60 million in award fees. The halt on the deliveries was lifted when issues with the TR-3 were finally addressed.
On Jul. 19, the JPO and Lockheed Martin announced the deliveries of the first two TR-3-configured F-35A Lightning IIs, with one going to Dannelly Field, Alabama, and the other to Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada. In the earnings call, CEO Jim Taiclet said that TR-3 flight testing has continued, “validating 95% of combat capabilities.”
Lockheed Martin Awarded ‘Undefinitized’ Contract for 145 F-35s Worth $11 Billion
The contract comes after Lockheed Martin said in October that it was internally funding the F-35 production line while negotiations for Lots 18 and 19,
theaviationist.com
US Marine F-18's have GaN AESA you silly boy. This is not some new tech for US.
Sure it would technically be a new design, but wouldn’t it be seen as a better design for the PLAAF to switch to, as the tech has matured, and wouldn’t be that far from the current J-20 design.
A design similar to the planned GCAP design.
Three team for Tempest combat aircraft company
BAE Systems, Leonardo, and JAIEC in Japan are to form a joint venture to develop and build the Tempest Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP)
Why developing a de fact new J-20 based fighter when you have the two next generation fighters already flying?
FuturePAF
THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
An intermediate design, with fixed tail is a known aspect, while the moving tail that goes flat with the tail as on the J-50 is still in development. It is also about improving the design for some of the 700-800 more J-20 that look likely to be procured.
Sorry, but that's nonsense ... you either build 700-800 more J-20 (What i rate impossible) since you need them soon within the next years and then go the J-20A and J-20AS / B route within the next years or you develop - for whatever reason - a more radically evolved J-20PLUS but this takes time - you need to consider it is not yet developed, built and flown as a de facto new aircraft - and then is only marginally earlier ready than the J-36 & J-SDX. IMO since the J-XDS is already flying it will be ready only much later and then being still not a true 6th generation fighter.
Ergo, IMO it makes no sense.
Hendarto
Registered Member
Yes China did produce GaOx
Here is the report in English
On March 5, 2025, Hangzhou Gallium Ren Semiconductor Co., Ltd. (hereinafter referred to as "Gallium Ren Semiconductor") released the world's first fourth-generation semiconductor gallium oxide 8-inch single crystal . Gallium Ren Semiconductor successfully achieved the growth of 8-inch gallium oxide single crystals using a wholly independent and innovative casting method, and can process wafer substrates of corresponding sizes.
This achievement marks that Gallium Ren Semiconductor has become the first company in the world to master the 8-inch gallium oxide single crystal growth technology, breaking the global record for the size of gallium oxide single crystals, and also creating an industry record of upgrading one size every year from 2 inches to 8 inches.
China's gallium oxide has taken the lead in entering the 8-inch era , which has far-reaching industrial significance.
First of all, 8-inch gallium oxide is compatible with the 8-inch production lines of existing silicon-based chip factories, which will significantly accelerate the pace of its industrial application.
Secondly, increasing the size of the gallium oxide substrate can improve its utilization, reduce production costs and improve production efficiency.
Finally, China was the first to break through the 8-inch technical barrier, which not only marked my country's technological progress in the field of ultra-wide bandgap semiconductors, but also enabled my country's gallium oxide industry to seize the initiative in the global semiconductor competition, and effectively promoted my country's dominant position in the global semiconductor competition landscape.
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