China preparing for 'protracted' war, says think tank

I believe the invasion of Taiwan will be a messy slugfest. It certainly is not as easy as PDF board members would like to portray.
Now, if you look at post 391 where the guy post pics of all those small boats implying China have enough vessels to transport 1 million troops to Taiwan, you will see the stupidity of his argument and that these guys do believe that war against Taiwan WILL BE that easy.

I always said, back in the old PDF, that I hope the PLA is filled with people like these guys. That will make defeating the PLA that much more entertaining.

So to post 391...Let us use delivering packages as analogy. Suppose I have to deliver 1000 packages to a warehouse. Do I use 1000 cars, or do I use two trucks where each can carry 500 packages? Post 391 is the usual stupidity this forum put up with.

Let's say everything goes right for Taiwan during Chinese landings, for every munition that Taiwan throws at the Chinese, there's no guarantee that they will have a 1:1 replacement. And if war escalates to a certain level that compels Taiwan to raise the ammo expenditure level astronomically, that would be bad news for Taiwan's war effort as their domestic production won't cover their expenditure and it's questionable if military aid from their allies could even reach their ports.
If China throws everything at Taiwan, of course Taiwan will fall, and be completely destroyed leaving Taiwan useless. But the issue is how much it will cost China and that will be more than the PDF Chinese realize. On Taiwan, it will have to be 'pacification by force'. Taiwan's technological treasure -- TSMC -- will be destroyed along with modern civilization infrastructure.

 
If China throws everything at Taiwan, of course Taiwan will fall, and be completely destroyed leaving Taiwan useless. But the issue is how much it will cost China and that will be more than the PDF Chinese realize. On Taiwan, it will have to be 'pacification by force'. Taiwan's technological treasure -- TSMC -- will be destroyed along with modern civilization infrastructure.
As long as Taiwan is Republic of China, it's safe. people don't want to fight another civil war.
 
Same paper tiger who decided to show off to Taiwan pre-90's until some US carriers came and strolled right past the Chinese coast in a show of force.

Yah we also had US war gaming near NK since like forever? Fat boy kim is also still laughing. What has it got to do with India btw? Still doesnt heal the 62' and Doklam kick in the nut though. Lolol

China could never do anything to them back then and just went quiet. Working diligently ever since to cross the 1st Island Chain Line.

Still can't do it! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Keep making cheap junk tho, it's was a good economic trap that worked quite well. 💪😉🫵

I hav3 been waiting for US boots in Ukriane till now. Where is my stronk US? Lolololol
 
Case in point....Taiwan got US help.

I have stepped foot inside the world's top 1-5 Uni and studied in the Top 50.

What about you? 😂
US don't eveb recognise Taiwan as a country. Lolol
 
Now, if you look at post 391 where the guy post pics of all those small boats implying China have enough vessels to transport 1 million troops to Taiwan, you will see the stupidity of his argument and that these guys do believe that war against Taiwan WILL BE that easy.

I always said, back in the old PDF, that I hope the PLA is filled with people like these guys. That will make defeating the PLA that much more entertaining.

So to post 391...Let us use delivering packages as analogy. Suppose I have to deliver 1000 packages to a warehouse. Do I use 1000 cars, or do I use two trucks where each can carry 500 packages? Post 391 is the usual stupidity this forum put up with.


If China throws everything at Taiwan, of course Taiwan will fall, and be completely destroyed leaving Taiwan useless. But the issue is how much it will cost China and that will be more than the PDF Chinese realize. On Taiwan, it will have to be 'pacification by force'. Taiwan's technological treasure -- TSMC -- will be destroyed along with modern civilization infrastructure.
China has hundreds of ferries,car transporters, open deck transporters Roro ships that can carry hundreds if not thousands of tanks, IFVs, and trucks. In 2017, new shipbuilding regulations forced the shipbuilder and owner to design this ship for dual military and civilian use. And they have exercised regularly with the mobilization of those ships as well as undercover loading and unloading of the ships. With every year the exercise is getting bigger and more complex. It is called STUFF ship taken.

China can easily build hundreds of landing craft with no problem because hundreds of shipyards inland along the major rivers can build those craft. But doing now will alarm and forewarn the foe So It is not the time yet. Plan is afoot now to build car transporters that can carry thousands of cars BYD and other car manufacturers are ordering this ship by the dozens

Shugart said, “China’s roll-on/roll-off ferries are very well-suited to support” any invasion of Taiwan. “Civilian augmentation will be essential, if not providing the majority of the required sealift capacity.”

Since the exercise, RoRo ships have returned to their normal routes, ferrying civilian vehicles across the entrance to the Bohai Sea. But their capability would allow China to switch to invasion mode at short notice.

“What can you come up with that’s better than a ferry? That’s what they do. That’s what they’re designed for, is to quickly move vehicles and people, drop them off and go back and work as efficiently as humanly possible,” Shugart told USNI News.

Related

https://news.usni.org/2021/07/26/ch...tedposts_origin=97662&relatedposts_position=0

Here is the video explaining the use of Roro for military operation
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Here the article from Forbes

China’s Ferry Tale Taiwan Invasion Plan Is A Legal Nightmare​

Jill Goldenziel
Contributor
I write & speak on security, law, political risk, & business threat.
China Shanghai Supply, Bohai Ferry, RO-RO, Roll-On Roll Off

YANTAI, CHINA - APRIL 13, 2022 - A container truck carrying anti-epidemic supplies to Shanghai ... [+]
FUTURE PUBLISHING VIA GETTY IMAGES
Last Friday, reports emerged that U.S. Air Force General Michael Minihan penned a memo to his command predicting that China would invade Taiwan in 2025. Analysts have repeatedly cited China’s lack of capacity for amphibious assault as evidence that it will not be ready for war so quickly. China’s recent military exercises, however, suggest that it has plans to fix this capacity gap—in a way that could have disastrous consequences for civilian life. China’s use of civilian ferries in military exercises blurs the legal distinction between civilian and military assets that makes it difficult to predict when, and if, China will invade Taiwan. It also erodes the core principles of the law of war.


China’s use of civilian ships to advance its military aims is central to its military strategy. Outside of armed conflict, China has used its maritime militia to advance its illegal maritime claims in the South and East Chinas seas. China is also using civilian Roll-On, Roll-Off car ferries (“RO-ROs”) in amphibious assault rehearsals, signifying that it plans to use them on the front lines during armed conflict. RO-ROs were initially invented by the British Navy after the emergency evacuation of Dunkirk. To speed the loading of vehicles, they placed a retractable ramp on a cargo ship’s bow and/or stern, an idea soon adopted by civilian ferry operators.

Military amphibious assault ships can open their ramps at sea, allowing small boats, landing craft, swimming tanks, and more to enter and exit the ship. Most civilian ferries do not have this capacity. However, China’s 2016 National Defense Transportation Law obligates transport companies to support People’s Liberation Army (PLA) operations and requires civilian RO-ROs to be built to military standards. The PLA has plans to use RO-ROs in or before conflict to launch vehicles, deliver forces, emplace mines, and engage in reconnaissance and deception.

In 2022, 30 different commercial RO-ROs participated in large-scale lift exercises involving PLA troops. The PLA has engaged in significant camouflage, concealment, and deception to disguise the use of the RO-ROs. A satellite photo from August 31, 2022 shows a 15,000 ton general purpose cargo RO-RO with its ramp in the water and several swimming tanks behind it, more than 1500 kilometers from its regular route, with a row of amphibious armored vehicles standing ready on a nearby beach. By one analyst’s calculation, the seven private Bohai Ferry Group ships participating in this exercise could have delivered 10,000 personnel and more than 80 percent of a PLA heavy brigade’s equipment.

The law of war applies only during armed conflict. However, China cannot be excused for eroding the principles of the law of war in peacetime. The exact moment when armed conflict begins, or when ships become legitimate military targets, is rarely clear. RO-ROs can be quickly diverted for military use, and may become targetable based on their nature, purpose, and use. Although the ships are currently operating outside of armed conflict, their use in exercises portends their use during armed conflict, which could occur on short notice.
 
As I said they exercise regularly and the size is getting bigger and bigger and more complex They even built a floating pontoon https://www.scmp.com/news/china/mil...ludes-civilian-ferry-military-transport-drill
The Chang Shan Dao ferry takes part in a military exercise on the Bohai Sea. Photo: CCTV

The Chang Shan Dao ferry takes part in a military exercise on the Bohai Sea. Photo: CCTV
China’s navy deployed a civilian ferry to transport troops and trucks in a test of amphibious warfare skills seen as key to an attack on Taiwan.
State broadcaster CCTV reported on Saturday that the Chang Shan Dao ferry transported equipment and personnel between Lushun New Port to the Port of Dalian on the Bohai Sea to develop the troops’ ability to transport supplies at sea.
“This ferry delivery exercise aimed to explore and test the efficiency of the combined forces’ long-distance supply operations, to clear barriers in the joint military-local logistics mechanism, and to optimise coordination,” it said.
The report did not say when the exercise took place, but according to ship-tracking website MarineTraffic the Chang Shan Dao sailed between ports in the city of Dalian on July 19.
The Chang Shan Dao ferry transports equipment and personnel during a military exercise. Photo: CCTV

The Chang Shan Dao ferry transports equipment and personnel during a military exercise. Photo: CCTV
Amphibious warfare would be central to an attack on Taiwan, the self-ruled island Beijing claims as its territory.


Beijing has never renounced using force to unite the island with mainland China. Most countries do not regard Taiwan as an independent state, but many oppose taking the island by force.
The People’s Liberation Army has been developing a “military-local logistics mechanism” to try to get supplies to front lines more efficiently.

The Chang Shan Dao can carry 1,400 people, has 2km (1.2 miles) of “driveway” for vehicles to park on and has a displacement of 23,000 tonnes, according to its state-owned operator Cosco Shipping Ferry.
The PLA has used civilian ferries built by state-owned enterprises to help it transport supplies in drills in the past.
 
Yup see one of these babies can carry thousands of tanks, IFV, Truck, ZBS 04,
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If you want to know more about STUFT (Ship taken from trade) Read this scholarly and exhaustive study of China preparation to use ferry https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cmsi-maritime-reports/35/
 
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They will built the capacity fast this article is way out dated now SAIC plan to built 12 humongous car transporter
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...ys-former-us-intelligence-officer/ar-BB1iforK

China can't use civilian ships to invade Taiwan just yet, but it's getting there, says former US intelligence officer

China's military has been conducting large-scale exercises with civilian ships, per an analyst.
At least 39 merchant vessels were recorded supporting the Chinese navy in 2023, wrote Michael Dahm.
They're likely preparing for a potential Taiwan invasion, but aren't ready for one yet, Dahm wrote.

China's fleet of civilian ships earmarked for war is unlikely to successfully invade Taiwan until at least 2030. Still, Beijing is making steady progress on that front, according to a senior analyst.

The Chinese military conducted at least 33 exercises with merchant vessels in 2023, falling short of the 38 such activities it conducted in 2022, wrote Michael Dahm, a retired US intelligence officer who is now a senior research fellow at the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies.

However, at least six of the exercises last year involved five or more ships in coordination, up from just three such events in 2022, wrote Dahm in a report published on Thursday by the US Naval War College's China Maritime Studies Institute.

One of the largest exercises in 2023 involved 14 cargo ships that could deliver as many as 1,000 military vehicles and 2,000 troops in around three days, Dahm wrote.

These civilian ships are mostly used to ferry military assets, particularly for beach landings, in exercises focused along the Taiwan Strait, Dahm added.

Such vessels are typically designed to allow wheeled vehicles to roll on or off the ship instead of being lifted on board.

Dahm wrote that last year also involved the first time that China's military was observed using large deck cargo ships, which usually can carry fewer vehicles but are more numerous.

"While deck cargo ships with their open decks may not be suited for long-distance voyages with military vehicles and personnel embarked, they may be an adequate and plentiful choice for the PLA to lift military forces short distances, such as across the Taiwan Strait," Dahm wrote.

China might also use open-deck civilian ships as sea-based landing pads for helicopters, he added.
China 'clearly' creating military doctrine for civilian fleet

Using satellite imagery and publicly available sources like state TV, Dahm recorded 39 Chinese merchant vessels supporting the Chinese navy over 812 ship days last year, with the bulk of activity occurring in the late summer.

In 2022, 36 civilian ships were used in exercises over 733 ship days, according to Dahm.

The exercises mostly involved ships departing from and landing in Chinese ports but could be used to simulate landings in Taiwan, Dahm wrote.

If the Chinese military could seize Taiwan's ports, "civil maritime ships might then surge into Taiwan ports and harbors with second echelon forces and logistics," Dahm wrote.

Alternatively, the civilian ships can be used to rapidly transport military resources along China's coast during war, he added.

But Dahm also cast doubt on the likelihood that China can successfully use its merchant fleet anytime soon for an amphibious invasion, at least without devastating casualties.

"As of this writing, a full-scale invasion of Taiwan prior to 2030 would probably be an extraordinarily high-risk endeavor for the PLA, one that would likely result in very high losses, especially among its supporting merchant fleet," Dahm wrote.

Yet China is making progress, finding ways to potentially reduce losses and risks, Dahm added.

"The PLA is clearly developing required procedures and increasing proficiency using civilian ships for logistics and landing operations," he wrote.

Requisitioning civilian vessels for military use hearkens to the Ships Taken Up By Trade practice from the UK, which used cruise liners, freighters, and tankers to carry troops and supplies during the Falklands War in 1982.

China has, in recent years, pushed aggressively for direct cooperation between its civilian and military sectors, compelling its tech and science industries to work with the People's Liberation Army directly.

Cross-strait tensions have worsened as Beijing says it will eventually retake Taiwan through force if necessary. Meanwhile, it bristled as the self-governing island in January elected William Lai Ching-te, whose ruling party campaigns heavily on resisting China.
 
China's SAIC set to add 14 vehicle vessels to boost exports
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...-vehicle-vessels-to-boost-exports/ar-AA1n6XTw

SAIC Motor Corp plans to add 14 vehicle vessels in the next three years to its fleet of carriers as the state-owned Chinese automaker aims to boost sales in overseas markets, it said on Wednesday.

SAIC-owned Anji Logistics operates 31 carriers that have been shipping vehicles produced by Chinese automakers including Dongfeng, Yutong Bus and Great Wall Motor as well as SAIC's own brands to South East Asia, Mexico, South America and Europe, the company said.

SAIC, which sold 1.2 million vehicles out of China in 2023, aims to increase its sales in overseas markets to 1.35 million units in 2024, China's The Paper reported.
It aims to sell 1.5 million vehicles outside its home market in 2025, the newspaper said, citing Vice President of SAIC Motor International Zhao Aimin.

The automaker also plans global sales of its two premium electric vehicle brands, IM Motors and Rising Auto, the report said.

Chinese automakers including BYD, Chery Automobile and SAIC have been placing orders for vessels to counter rising shipping costs as they boost exports.

BYD's first chartered vehicle vessel has set sail from China's southern city of Shenzhen, carrying more than 5,000 electric vehicles to Europe, state media Xinhua reported on Tuesday.

SAIC Motor said last year it had begun selecting a site to build a plant in Europe to produce electric vehicles.
 
China has hundreds of ferries,car transporters, open deck transporters Roro ships that can carry hundreds if not thousands of tanks, IFVs, and trucks. In 2017, new shipbuilding regulations forced the shipbuilder and owner to design this ship for dual military and civilian use.
Those are not boats as post 391 have which was stupid.

China can easily build hundreds of landing craft with no problem because hundreds of shipyards inland along the major rivers can build those craft. But doing now will alarm and forewarn the foe So It is not the time yet.
Yes, that is what I have been saying for yrs, that there is no element of surprise, unlike D-Day. Those civilian ships will be easily ID-ed while underway and targeted, then targeted again as they wait off the coast to deliver their cargo, they have to wait off the coast because of the shallow water. And again, all you have to do is look at the tanker in the Red Sea that eventually sank, that ship was hit just once.

Do you see the HIMARS in Ukraine? That was on land where mobility is easier. Once the invasion fleet reach the %50 distance mark, mobility decreases because the ships have to re-array themselves for landing, and they will be in HIMARS range. The analogy is WW II bombers in FORMATION to release as AA rounds explodes around the bombers. Do you understand the implication here?

Maybe you should do some research.


The beaches were given the code names UTAH, OMAHA, GOLD, JUNO, and SWORD. The invasion force included 7,000 ships and landing craft manned by over 195,000 naval personnel from eight allied countries. Almost 133,000 troops from the United States, the British Commonwealth, and their allies, landed on D-Day.​

D-Day had 5 landing sites. How many possible on Taiwan? And Taiwan knows all of them. D-Day had 133k landing troops. Current analyses has estimates of 1 mil to invade Taiwan. So you have tens of thousands of ships in formation with limited maneuvering room for each ship, moving at best 15 mph over sea state 4, heading to shallow water while an enemy knows everything and waiting for them.

All Taiwan has to do is inflict 1/3 damages to the invasion fleet and the invasion will fail.

 
Those are not boats as post 391 have which was stupid.


Yes, that is what I have been saying for yrs, that there is no element of surprise, unlike D-Day. Those civilian ships will be easily ID-ed while underway and targeted, then targeted again as they wait off the coast to deliver their cargo, they have to wait off the coast because of the shallow water. And again, all you have to do is look at the tanker in the Red Sea that eventually sank, that ship was hit just once.

Do you see the HIMARS in Ukraine? That was on land where mobility is easier. Once the invasion fleet reach the %50 distance mark, mobility decreases because the ships have to re-array themselves for landing, and they will be in HIMARS range. The analogy is WW II bombers in FORMATION to release as AA rounds explodes around the bombers. Do you understand the implication here?

Maybe you should do some research.


The beaches were given the code names UTAH, OMAHA, GOLD, JUNO, and SWORD. The invasion force included 7,000 ships and landing craft manned by over 195,000 naval personnel from eight allied countries. Almost 133,000 troops from the United States, the British Commonwealth, and their allies, landed on D-Day.​

D-Day had 5 landing sites. How many possible on Taiwan? And Taiwan knows all of them. D-Day had 133k landing troops. Current analyses has estimates of 1 mil to invade Taiwan. So you have tens of thousands of ships in formation with limited maneuvering room for each ship, moving at best 15 mph over sea state 4, heading to shallow water while an enemy knows everything and waiting for them.

All Taiwan has to do is inflict 1/3 damages to the invasion fleet and the invasion will fail.
D day was a battle of the world war which almost all then world power were involved, thinking Taiwan strait battle like WW2 is purely stupid. Taiwan battle will be more like Hainan battle.


language-distribution.jpg
 
Those are not boats as post 391 have which was stupid.


Yes, that is what I have been saying for yrs, that there is no element of surprise, unlike D-Day. Those civilian ships will be easily ID-ed while underway and targeted, then targeted again as they wait off the coast to deliver their cargo, they have to wait off the coast because of the shallow water. And again, all you have to do is look at the tanker in the Red Sea that eventually sank, that ship was hit just once.

Do you see the HIMARS in Ukraine? That was on land where mobility is easier. Once the invasion fleet reach the %50 distance mark, mobility decreases because the ships have to re-array themselves for landing, and they will be in HIMARS range. The analogy is WW II bombers in FORMATION to release as AA rounds explodes around the bombers. Do you understand the implication here?

Maybe you should do some research.


The beaches were given the code names UTAH, OMAHA, GOLD, JUNO, and SWORD. The invasion force included 7,000 ships and landing craft manned by over 195,000 naval personnel from eight allied countries. Almost 133,000 troops from the United States, the British Commonwealth, and their allies, landed on D-Day.​

D-Day had 5 landing sites. How many possible on Taiwan? And Taiwan knows all of them. D-Day had 133k landing troops. Current analyses has estimates of 1 mil to invade Taiwan. So you have tens of thousands of ships in formation with limited maneuvering room for each ship, moving at best 15 mph over sea state 4, heading to shallow water while an enemy knows everything and waiting for them.

All Taiwan has to do is inflict 1/3 damages to the invasion fleet and the invasion will fail.
Himar record in Ukraine is not very convincing.After initial success Russian basically find antidote of himar by fooling it with electronic warfare
Those are not boats as post 391 have which was stupid.


Yes, that is what I have been saying for yrs, that there is no element of surprise, unlike D-Day. Those civilian ships will be easily ID-ed while underway and targeted, then targeted again as they wait off the coast to deliver their cargo, they have to wait off the coast because of the shallow water. And again, all you have to do is look at the tanker in the Red Sea that eventually sank, that ship was hit just once.

Do you see the HIMARS in Ukraine? That was on land where mobility is easier. Once the invasion fleet reach the %50 distance mark, mobility decreases because the ships have to re-array themselves for landing, and they will be in HIMARS range. The analogy is WW II bombers in FORMATION to release as AA rounds explodes around the bombers. Do you understand the implication here?

Maybe you should do some research.


The beaches were given the code names UTAH, OMAHA, GOLD, JUNO, and SWORD. The invasion force included 7,000 ships and landing craft manned by over 195,000 naval personnel from eight allied countries. Almost 133,000 troops from the United States, the British Commonwealth, and their allies, landed on D-Day.​

D-Day had 5 landing sites. How many possible on Taiwan? And Taiwan knows all of them. D-Day had 133k landing troops. Current analyses has estimates of 1 mil to invade Taiwan. So you have tens of thousands of ships in formation with limited maneuvering room for each ship, moving at best 15 mph over sea state 4, heading to shallow water while an enemy knows everything and waiting for them.

All Taiwan has to do is inflict 1/3 damages to the invasion fleet and the invasion will fail.
Himar, storm shadow are all paper tigers. After initial success, Russia practically negates the Himar by fooling it with electronic warfare. We haven't heard much success from himar lately. It won't be ten of a thousand ships like WWII because those ships are humongous and they will be heavily guarded by both Anti-air destroyers like type 55. China will insert a Special op unit to try to take the airfield near Taiper and they will soften the landing site with a heavy bombardment of rockets, drones, artillery, air attack, helicopter gunships, surface to surface cruise missiles as you have never seen before

Taiwan straits are only 150km from mainland and China's IAD can cover all those landing sites The range of S400 is 400 km

WashingtonCNN —
Russia has been thwarting US-made mobile rocket systems in Ukraine more frequently in recent months, using electronic jammers to throw off its GPS guided targeting system to cause rockets to miss their targets, multiple people briefed on the matter told CNN.

Ukrainian military officials, with the US’ help, have had to come up with a variety of different workarounds as it continues to use the High
Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) which has been perhaps the most revered and feared piece of weaponry in Ukraine’s fight.
 
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