Chinese Aircraft Carriers - Liaoning, Shandong, Fujian and the future

[GatlingGun]

uuuu, the acid is strong. Yes, we are building a billion dollar ship that does not work, now you can sleep in peace. lol

Acid ?? It's you who wants to believe without proof.
You think PLA don't publish any pics due to "muh opsec" because China is building intergalactic launcher .

 

[Han Patriot]

Acid ?? It's you who wants to believe without proof.
You think PLA don't publish any pics due to "muh opsec" because China is building intergalactic launcher .

Well, have you seen us boasting and bullshitng like Indians? Whatever we planned, we almost always achieved. Told you we are building a casino

 

[Fatman17]

Chinese Carrier Aviation In 2024 - The Year So Far

Busy months for the development of Chinese carrier aviation include progress on all relevant programs. Includes AEWC- and fighter-efforts.

www.navalnews.com

 

[FuturePAF]

Posted this comment in another thread, but it seems better to ask on this thread:

Considering the advances in carrier technology, is it possible China could rebuild either the Liaoning or Shandong or both as CATOBAR carriers, with two EMALS each? It could open up the possibility of the use of the fixed wing AWACS and fully loaded fighters.

 

[Deino]

One of the best images of the Fujian …

By the way, painting of the markings has begun:

 

[guangdongt]

Posted this comment in another thread, but it seems better to ask on this thread:

Considering the advances in carrier technology, is it possible China could rebuild either the Liaoning or Shandong or both as CATOBAR carriers, with two EMALS each? It could open up the possibility of the use of the fixed wing AWACS and fully loaded fighters.

Considering the cost issue, it took Liaoning 10 years to transform from a training aircraft carrier to a truly wartime aircraft carrier, which is the purpose of this maintenance upgrade. China will continue to build more aircraft carriers, which are likely to be nuclear powered aircraft carriers. Therefore, in the short term, we may not see significant modifications to the Liaoning, which is not a brand new aircraft carrier and has been around for a long time
The predecessor of the Liaoning aircraft carrier was the second ship of the Soviet Navy's Marshal Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier, the Varyag. In the mid to late 1980s, the Varyag was built in Ukraine due to the collapse of the Soviet Union, resulting in construction interruptions and a completion rate of 68%. In 1999, China purchased the Varyag
Shandong may have a possibility in the future

 

[FuturePAF]

Considering the cost issue, it took Liaoning 10 years to transform from a training aircraft carrier to a truly wartime aircraft carrier, which is the purpose of this maintenance upgrade. China will continue to build more aircraft carriers, which are likely to be nuclear powered aircraft carriers. Therefore, in the short term, we may not see significant modifications to the Liaoning, which is not a brand new aircraft carrier and has been around for a long time
The predecessor of the Liaoning aircraft carrier was the second ship of the Soviet Navy's Marshal Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier, the Varyag. In the mid to late 1980s, the Varyag was built in Ukraine due to the collapse of the Soviet Union, resulting in construction interruptions and a completion rate of 68%. In 1999, China purchased the Varyag
Shandong may have a possibility in the future

While I agree on a cost basis, converting the Liaoning doesn’t make sense when a new built carrier could be built, but if we take a look at the PLAN mission of defending SLOCs in the Indian Ocean, we can see that the these ships can solider on for another 20-25 years in a limited but strategic capacity.

If China’s reiteration that Pakistan is important to China and both nations have an interests in defending their SLOCs, a transfer to the PN (taking into account for Chinese advisors on board) could help the PLAN gain experience more quickly and fulfill the mission of protecting then Arabian Sea portion of the SLOCs and East African waters (the Shandong could be based out of Myanmar to protect the eastern Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal SLOCs).

Use as a helicopter carrier for UN missions, or ASW platform, or disaster relief platform, or general competitor to the idea that India is the security guarantor of the Indian Ocean region, can play a big role in China being able to outcompete India in building soft power in the global south. A “sale” to Pakistan would allow it to be under PN control and help bog down the IN, limiting their capacity to interfere in the South China Sea.

A single 65,000 ton catobar carrier could generate enough sorties then the current two Indian carriers, while the Shandong out of Myanmar could deal with at least the planned 3rd if not also the 4th Indian carriers on the drawing boards.

Considering the age of the carrier and China’s ability to build another one, the transfer of the Liaoning to the PN could easily be made up in 2-3 years of ship building.

 

[guangdongt]

While I agree on a cost basis, converting the Liaoning doesn’t make sense when a new built carrier could be built, but if we take a look at the PLAN mission of defending SLOCs in the Indian Ocean, we can see that the these ships can solider on for another 20-25 years in a limited but strategic capacity.

If China’s reiteration that Pakistan is important to China and both nations have an interests in defending their SLOCs, a transfer to the PN (taking into account for Chinese advisors on board) could help the PLAN gain experience more quickly and fulfill the mission of protecting then Arabian Sea portion of the SLOCs and East African waters (the Shandong could be based out of Myanmar to protect the eastern Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal SLOCs).

Use as a helicopter carrier for UN missions, or ASW platform, or disaster relief platform, or general competitor to the idea that India is the security guarantor of the Indian Ocean region, can play a big role in China being able to outcompete India in building soft power in the global south. A “sale” to Pakistan would allow it to be under PN control and help bog down the IN, limiting their capacity to interfere in the South China Sea.

A single 65,000 ton catobar carrier could generate enough sorties then the current two Indian carriers, while the Shandong out of Myanmar could deal with at least the planned 3rd if not also the 4th Indian carriers on the drawing boards.

Considering the age of the carrier and China’s ability to build another one, the transfer of the Liaoning to the PN could easily be made up in 2-3 years of ship building.

Let me start with my experience. 24 years ago, on the Chinese internet, the biggest hobby of military enthusiasts was participating in a debate: whether China should develop aircraft carriers or submarines. Three years later, I went to the city where the Chinese Navy's South China Sea Fleet was stationed at that time. Here, I saw the most advanced destroyer in China at that time, the Type 051b and the Shenzhen Ship 167. This 6000 ton destroyer is stationed in this city year-round and became one of the favorite photo backgrounds for married people at the time. Beside it is a long pile of various outdated warships with small tonnage, including supply ships. Since then, I have understood that China still needs to wait for its own aircraft carrier, and the key is not whether Pakistan can obtain the aircraft carrier transferred by China. In my personal opinion, the key is what Pakistan's naval development goals will be in the next 20 years. Can it obtain sufficient economic demand to support this development. Because aircraft carriers are essentially a means of ensuring the interests of the country's marine economy
The development of Chinese aircraft carriers is based on the development of supporting auxiliary warships, and China's marine economy and trade have developed to the point where aircraft carriers are needed. At this point, aircraft carriers are a positive asset. Otherwise, their high maintenance costs are not the best choice for purely military purposes

 

[guangdongt]

In my opinion, the emergence of Chinese aircraft carriers in Pakistan requires the possibility that Pakistan's maritime economic interests are aligned with China's economic interests. For example, Pakistan's products are also sold in large quantities to China, and the Pakistani industrial chain and China support each other, becoming the best mutually beneficial partnership. The Chinese people hope that Pakistan can develop into a true maritime economic power, which is a very real chain of interests
Because China's economy has begun to transform, China cannot always rely on real estate to consume people's wallets. At the same time of upgrading the manufacturing industry, China's the Belt and Road policy is not just to sell things to other countries in essence. China itself is a big consumer. Chile's cherry are sold to China in large quantities every year by sea, becoming one of the favorites of Chinese consumers

 

[Fatman17]

While I agree on a cost basis, converting the Liaoning doesn’t make sense when a new built carrier could be built, but if we take a look at the PLAN mission of defending SLOCs in the Indian Ocean, we can see that the these ships can solider on for another 20-25 years in a limited but strategic capacity.

If China’s reiteration that Pakistan is important to China and both nations have an interests in defending their SLOCs, a transfer to the PN (taking into account for Chinese advisors on board) could help the PLAN gain experience more quickly and fulfill the mission of protecting then Arabian Sea portion of the SLOCs and East African waters (the Shandong could be based out of Myanmar to protect the eastern Indian Ocean / Bay of Bengal SLOCs).

Use as a helicopter carrier for UN missions, or ASW platform, or disaster relief platform, or general competitor to the idea that India is the security guarantor of the Indian Ocean region, can play a big role in China being able to outcompete India in building soft power in the global south. A “sale” to Pakistan would allow it to be under PN control and help bog down the IN, limiting their capacity to interfere in the South China Sea.

A single 65,000 ton catobar carrier could generate enough sorties then the current two Indian carriers, while the Shandong out of Myanmar could deal with at least the planned 3rd if not also the 4th Indian carriers on the drawing boards.

Considering the age of the carrier and China’s ability to build another one, the transfer of the Liaoning to the PN could easily be made up in 2-3 years of ship building.

Highly unlikely but a interesting idea

 

[FuturePAF]

Highly unlikely but a interesting idea

Perhaps just too early to say, especially dependent on how Pakistan manages to correct itself economically by 2030.

 

[ety]

Considering the age of the carrier and China’s ability to build another one, the transfer of the Liaoning to the PN could easily be made up in 2-3 years of ship building.

Is Pakistani economy likely to support the operational cost of a carrier battle group like Liaoning group in the near future ? China didn't commission its first carrier Liaoning until 2012, at that time China's economy was $8.5 T in size. But, of course, some country like India did manage to own and operate a light or medium weight carrier since decades ago in the 1960s, the carrier played a crucial role in the 1971 war against Pakistani navy and port.

 

[FuturePAF]

Is Pakistani economy likely to support the operational cost of a carrier battle group like Liaoning group in the near future ? China didn't commission its first carrier Liaoning until 2012, at that time China's economy was $8.5 T in size. But, of course, some country like India did manage to own and operate a light or medium weight carrier since decades ago in the 1960s, the carrier played a crucial role in the 1971 war against Pakistani navy and port.

Pakistan’s GDP and growth are currently depressed under mismanagement. Corrections to the mismanagement and bring the informal economy into the regular economy could see growth get back on track. Currently it officially stands at $375 Billion. With a population around 230-250 million people. Even small growth in a population that size could see massive growth to GDP. Considering with the informal economy, the total economy is approx. $457 Billion, and growth averaging of about 6% a year as under the IK government, in 5 years we could see an economy of over $600 billion, and in 10 years it would be over $800 Billion, closing in on a Trillion dollar economy in less than 14 years.

Pakistan’s undocumented economy | The Express Tribune

Increasing public awareness about benefits of taxes can help reduce impact of informal economy on economic growth

tribune.com.pk

Turkey has a GDP around $900 Billion and a population of 85 million. They are in the stages of designing a 60,000 ton aircraft carrier.

If Pakistan’s economy can reach the level of the Turkish economy, it’s not inconceivable that Pakistan could support a carrier battle group that protects its SLOCs (and those of its partner China) in the northern Arabian Sea, and push back against domination of Indian Hegemony around the Indian Ocean, particularly along the East African coast, where BRI projects are being developed.

Our First Look at the Turkish Navy's Future Aircraft Carrier - Naval News

An image surfaced in Turkey revealing the design and various features of the Turkish Navy's future aircraft carrier.

www.navalnews.com

 

[guangdongt]

Pakistan’s GDP and growth are currently depressed under mismanagement. Corrections to the mismanagement and bring the informal economy into the regular economy could see growth get back on track. Currently it officially stands at $375 Billion. With a population around 230-250 million people. Even small growth in a population that size could see massive growth to GDP. Considering with the informal economy, the total economy is approx. $457 Billion, and growth averaging of about 6% a year as under the IK government, in 5 years we could see an economy of over $600 billion, and in 10 years it would be over $800 Billion, closing in on a Trillion dollar economy in less than 14 years.

Pakistan’s undocumented economy | The Express Tribune

Increasing public awareness about benefits of taxes can help reduce impact of informal economy on economic growth

tribune.com.pk

Turkey has a GDP around $900 Billion and a population of 85 million. They are in the stages of designing a 60,000 ton aircraft carrier.

If Pakistan’s economy can reach the level of the Turkish economy, it’s not inconceivable that Pakistan could support a carrier battle group that protects its SLOCs (and those of its partner China) in the northern Arabian Sea, and push back against domination of Indian Hegemony around the Indian Ocean, particularly along the East African coast, where BRI projects are being developed.

Our First Look at the Turkish Navy's Future Aircraft Carrier - Naval News

An image surfaced in Turkey revealing the design and various features of the Turkish Navy's future aircraft carrier.

www.navalnews.com

If Pakistan can reach the economic level of Türkiye, not only China, but also the United States will change its attitude. US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said: "Since the Biden administration took office, it has made" investment and reinvestment "in U.S. allies, partnerships and multilateral systems in the face of Sino US competition, which is in line with the interests of the United States. The comparative advantage of the United States is that it has a strong alliance and partner network." After this paragraph, he said, "In the international system, if you do not sit at the table, you will appear on the menu. Therefore, it is very important for us to re engage in multilateral contacts, and we have done it." You see, this is true international relations, Pakistan needs to improve its own economy, and China is not the traditional Western countries. , we also urgently need stable and developing neighbors. A diversified world is beneficial to everyone.Otherwise, each of our countries will always be passively sent to the dining table，This is no longer an era of confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union, with various camps standing on the sidelines. Instead, the more a country tends to stabilize and develop independently, the higher its degree of freedom and cooperation，Very advantageous to China

 

[FuturePAF]

If Pakistan can reach the economic level of Türkiye, not only China, but also the United States will change its attitude. US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said: "Since the Biden administration took office, it has made" investment and reinvestment "in U.S. allies, partnerships and multilateral systems in the face of Sino US competition, which is in line with the interests of the United States. The comparative advantage of the United States is that it has a strong alliance and partner network." After this paragraph, he said, "In the international system, if you do not sit at the table, you will appear on the menu. Therefore, it is very important for us to re engage in multilateral contacts, and we have done it." You see, this is true international relations, Pakistan needs to improve its own economy, and China is not the traditional Western countries. , we also urgently need stable and developing neighbors. A diversified world is beneficial to everyone.Otherwise, each of our countries will always be passively sent to the dining table，This is no longer an era of confrontation between the United States and the Soviet Union, with various camps standing on the sidelines. Instead, the more a country tends to stabilize and develop independently, the higher its degree of freedom and cooperation，Very advantageous to China

This is why agricultural reforms (including water management) to make higher value added agricultural products will be vital in conjunction to the $58 Billion direct rail link to China. The Indus River Watershed has so much potential under good management, especially considering its relatively wealthy neighbors both to the north and well as to its south west.

If we take the $457 Billion total GDP number and see that current population growth along accounts for a natural 2-3% annual growth in GDP, human development and infrastructure improvements could see the Pakistani economy at the very least close the GDP per capita gap with India (and their informal economy) in a generation, which if was the case right now would mean a Pakistani GDP of $730-822 Billion.

Btw, other estimates of the Turkish economy nowadays put it closer to $800 billions, so not far off from what the Pakistani economy ought to be at the moment, had it been managed correctly.

Coming back to the Liaoning, for a long time China took for granted its goods could use the oceans freely, but it is building my up the navy because it’s hedging against being blockaded. Equally, Pakistan has to consider a future where it may need to safeguard its trade should it not bow to Indian hegemony.

But at the moment, resources are best spend building up the economy.