Discussion: India Pakistan Clash in the Next Few Months?

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NDA (including BJP) got 45% vote share.
Ah, OK, including the partners.

While issuing my standard disclaimer, of standing aloof from the Congress, it needs to be pointed out that Nehru in 52 was leading a unitary party, and did not get the additional 7% of voter share from allied parties.

Further, conditions today are so suspect that the two results simply cannot be compared. Not to mention that the geographical spread of the Congress votes is not to be compared with what has emerged of the Sanghi vote.
 
With the addition of big Howitzers in PA doubt the Indians will try any thing. Indians will get absolutley destroyed and they know it.

You can't fight a full scale conventional war with India who has ten times your resources .
Your fraction GDP and Forex and complete reliance on Chinese good will means a serious war for you guys is no start
Big howitzers dont make up for Indian massive resource advantage huge strategic depth....
 
My motive is different. I know you oppose modi but you are a minority. Well I have been a guest on the old pdf since 2005. I decided to join this new forum. With regards to india or Indians; would you believe at one time being of Bengali origin I wished there to be good relations between Bangladesh, West Bengal, assam, tripura etc as we share common origin history etc. however after seeing the loads of islamaphobic comments on YouTube, Facebook, Reddit etc made my Indians and RSS supporters made me reconsider. My motive Joe is to defend my people religion and faith. India especially lead by modi and RSS is a threat to muslims worldwide. After subjugating and killing muslims in India they will come for muslims in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Maldives, Malaysia, Indonesia etc ; therefore yes I am motivated to be vocal and raise awareness and any setback for them such as in 2019 balakot saga and 2020 ladakh / galwan saga is something positive in my opinion.
Do you people ever listen yourself talking? How absurd do you sound? How stupid you sound?

Modi for all the evil he is and all the evil his party is has not yet done one single thing on the lines of what Pakistan has done recently in expelling Afghanis in their land. And Pakistani are supposed to be Muslims!

Its not just the incompetence (which is a real concern in India) but unwillingness to act on true genocidal lines -- thankfully. Leave outside India, within India there is nothing on the lines of systematic genocide and oppression that has been done by Chinese or even British in North America. And there is a very big reason why Modi can never really go on those lines. Modi is ultimately answerable to the businessmen in India and not the other way round ( contrast with Indira Gandhi ). He will never do things that will mess interests of Indian business community.

Truely we suffer more from the imagined daemons than the real ones.

While issuing my standard disclaimer, of standing aloof from the Congress, it needs to be pointed out that Nehru in 52 was leading a unitary party, and did not get the additional 7% of voter share from allied parties.
Indian general elections these days are more presidential than parliamentary in nature. People have literally said that if Modi asks us to vote for my house maid, we will... To the point that INC and its allies had to launch a campign "educating" people to vote for the representative in their constituency and not the PM candidate... An ultimate submission that they have no real PM candidate.

Nehru and Modi enjoyed the same boon. Both never had a real competitor for throne.
 
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Do you people ever listen yourself talking? How absurd do you sound? How stupid you sound?

Modi for all the evil he is and all the evil his party is has not yet done one single thing on the lines of what Pakistan has done recently in expelling Afghanis in their land. And Pakistani are supposed to be Muslims!

Its not just the incompetence (which is a real concern in India) but unwillingness to act on true genocidal lines -- thankfully. Leave outside India, within India there is nothing on the lines of systematic genocide and oppression that has been done by Chinese or even British in North America.

Truely we suffer more from the imagined daemons than the real ones.


Indian general elections these days are more presidential than parliamentary in nature. People have literally said that if Modi asks us to vote for my house maid, we will... To the point that INC and its allies had to launch a campign "educating" people to vote for the representative in their constituency and not the PM candidate... An ultimate submission that they have no real PM candidate.

Nehru and Modi enjoyed the same boon. Both never had a real competitor for throne.
Let us agree to disagree. This is after all not an Indian thread in an Indian forum, and we have trespassed enough.
 
With the addition of big Howitzers in PA doubt the Indians will try any thing. Indians will get absolutley destroyed and they know it.
I think almost everyone in India has come to the same conclusion: Best weapon against Pakistan are Pakistani and their Army. Just let them run the country in peace and tranquillity.

You can't fight a full scale conventional war with India who has ten times your resources .
Your fraction GDP and Forex and complete reliance on Chinese good will means a serious war for you guys is no start
Big howitzers dont make up for Indian massive resource advantage huge strategic depth....
There is never any need to fight Pakistan and Pakistani. Just ... let them be and live peacefully.
 
They are actually exactly the same age.

Avoid the intervening stuff, and go to the last paragraph.

There was a schism around 2000 BC, when the combined tribe was still on the banks of the Oxus.
The winners believed Ahura was the almighty lord, and he was opposed by the Daivas.
The losers believed that the Devas were gods, and the Asura, their cousins, were the other divine band who were not gods.
The winners stayed on where they were.

First, the Mitanni broke away and migrated hundreds of kilometres and landed up finally in Asia Minor, today's Turkey, came to dominate the local people, the Hittites, and built a vast empire, one of the several that the Hittites were known for.

Second, the Indo-Aryans broke away, settled in Afghanistan, but not permanently stabilised there, called and named the seven rivers, the Hapta Hindu, until the bleak surroundings drove them across in dribs and drabs, as tribes and bands and even, perhaps, families, across the Khaibar, the Gumal and the Bolan. Those who came through the Bolan found a massive river in front that they named as they named other huge bodies of water, the Sindhu.

They found a people who had abandoned the magnificent Indus Valley Civilisation, and lived in smaller settlements outside those main cities, intermarried with them, and, in the northern branch, passed into today's NWFP, into the Punjab, and then through the Ganges Doab for nine centuries, until they reached the swampy mouths of the Ganges, by sometime before 600 BC. The western branch either started from a point where travellers would debouch from the Bolan (speculative) or were part of the original migrants who drifted downstream. Some time around 1500 to 1300 BC (difficult to date), nine of the southern kings met a late-coming tribe, the Bharatas, and were defeated.

The winners in all this schism won big, which is why Doc is so bloody insufferable. They penetrated into the Persian uplands, formed the Medean Empire, while smaller groups, speaking the same language, stayed back on the steppes and formed the Scythians. Ironically, the Medeans were supplanted by a vassal people of their own stock, the Persians, and their first great king, Cyrus, was killed battling his cousins, the Scythians, on the steppes.

Regarding religion, some time after the schism, a religious reformer united the Iranian speakers into the monotheistic Zoroastrian faith. Their religion was administered the way the Parsis and the Iranis of India today administer their fire temples.

The other branch, the Indo-Aryans, started with worship of the sky god, the god of thunder, the god of fire, the god of the waters, the goddess of the dawn, the heavenly twin horsemen, and in these respects almost exactly matched the beliefs of their long-lost cousins, the Mitanni. In addition, these peoples, having mingled thoroughly with the local remnants of the IVC and with the existing hunter-gatherers who populated almost the whole of north India, picked up the worship of local deities, and Siva probably dates from this intermingling, as do the goddesses, most of them who had not found mention in the Rg Veda. So you get the three main branches of what the people themselves never named, but today is increasingly being called Sanatan Dharma, the Old Faith, the three branches being worship of Siva, worship of Vishnu and worship of the Goddess. All that cultural churn happened between 1500 BC and 600 BC, when the Buddha and Mahavira threw out the tenets of the Old Religion, and declared that there must be a better way to live and to die.

To pen an eponymous post, you and @vsdoc are saying that Hinduism is an import from Central Asia with some local embellishments.

Better watch your back in Modi's India and be safe...
 
To pen an eponymous post, you and @vsdoc are saying that Hinduism is an import from Central Asia with some local embellishments.

Better watch your back in Modi's India and be safe...
The Indo-Aryan incursion was one, in a series. The urban legend we get is that there was never any incursion by the Indo-Aryans, that the vedic culture was developed entirely in India and travelled out of India, giving rise to the Indo-European language family by transmutation in different countries - never any attempt at academic or scientific proof, just bald assertions followed by hysteria when this point or that was left in a crumbled heap around the proposers' feet.

After the Indo-Aryans, we had
  1. The Persians
  2. The Alexandrine Greeks
  3. The Bactrian Greeks
  4. The Scythians, known in Indian history as the Saka-Pahlava
  5. The Kushana
  6. The Huns (three different waves and three different sub-tribes)
  7. The Arabs
  8. The Turks
  9. The Afghans
  10. The Mughals
  11. The Portuguese
  12. The Dutch
  13. The English/British
  14. The French
  15. The Danish
Those who have read up on these will also know what a cock-eyed fallacy it is to claim that the Alexandrine troops were afraid to penetrate past the general area of the Hydaspes. The Maurya Empire intervened, but after its fall, its successor dynasty was over-run by the remnants of the Greek soldiers, who had set up a flourishing civilisation in Bactria, and whose raids penetrated up to Kanauj in the UP, while their kings ruled in the Punjab.

To pen an eponymous post, you and @vsdoc are saying that Hinduism is an import from Central Asia with some local embellishments.

Better watch your back in Modi's India and be safe...
Not really; there was a tremendous efflorescence based on the Vedas and succeeding scriptural developments were worked out. Those are perhaps the most sublime period of intellectual thought in India. Bar none.

Don't worry, I got the sardonic jab.
 
The urban legend we get is that there was never any incursion by the Indo-Aryans, that the vedic culture was developed entirely in India and travelled out of India

But that narrative is central to the theme that Muslims are 'the other' and must be expunged or 'ghar wapsi'.
The Christians also but that is perhaps left to a late time when Western support is not needed.

The sad part is that 'Make India Great Again' has been hijacked by and made synonymous with 'Make Hinduism Great Again' in the minds of the young generation.
 
But that narrative is central to the theme that Muslims are 'the other' and must be expunged or 'ghar wapsi'.
The Christians also but that is perhaps left to a late time when Western support is not needed.

The sad part is that 'Make India Great Again' has been hijacked by and made synonymous with 'Make Hinduism Great Again' in the minds of the young generation.

Don't be knowingly obtuse.

There is zero belief anywhere in India that our Muslims are not our own stock.

We do not suffer the same mental ambiguity and flights of fancy of origin as some of the other Muslims in the region do.

Ghar wapsi quite simply is reversion. Back to Hinduism.

There is very large currency in the thought process in India that Islam is not native to this region, both as a faith and its core philosophy and tenets that are frankly hostile to other faiths and its socio-cultural elements. In terms of laws, diet, clothing, and even style of facial hair and traditional practices of male genital skin excision.

On top of all of this is the baggage that they are part of the group that asked for a separate country only for themselves. So what are they doing here? And if they are here, why are some/many of them still behaving insular and hostile. After all, if that is the attitude, then its not very different to the one that created first one and then 2 new nations, so maybe they are in the wrong place.

Hence the exhortation to move to Pakistan. Surprisingly, no one says move to Bangladesh. Maybe @Joe Shearer can tell us if back home, Bangladesh replaces Pakistan.

So in summary, this is about an outside faith and culture with whom the majority native faith of the soil, the overwhelming dominant faith, the faith that did not choose to have a nation in its name, has a very bloody and fraught history with.

NOT the people.

In the Blood Faith Soil paradigm of ancient Aryan theology and belief, Islam does not fit here.

Or in Iran.

In Iran however, the dominant faith and culture is Muslim. And we all know what happened to the resident ancestral faith and its followers.

Not in India.

Cheers, Doc
 
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But that narrative is central to the theme that Muslims are 'the other' and must be expunged or 'ghar wapsi'.
The Christians also but that is perhaps left to a late time when Western support is not needed.

The sad part is that 'Make India Great Again' has been hijacked by and made synonymous with 'Make Hinduism Great Again' in the minds of the young generation.

Don't be knowingly obtuse.

There is zero belief anywhere in India that our Muslims are not our own stock.

We do not suffer the same mental ambiguity and flights of fancy of origin as some of the other Muslims in the region do.

Ghar wapsi quite simply is reversion. Back to Hinduism.

There is very large currency in the thought process in India that Islam is not native to this region, both as a faith and its core philosophy and tenets that are frankly hostile to other faiths and its socio-cultural elements. In terms of laws, diet, clothing, and even style of facial hair and traditional practices of male genital skin excision.

On top of all of this is the baggage that they are part of the group that asked for a separate country only for themselves. So what are they doing here? And if they are here, why are some/many of them still behaving insular and hostile. After all, if that is the attitude, then its not very different to the one that created first one and then 2 new nations, so maybe they are in the wrong place.

Hence the exhortation to move to Pakistan. Surprisingly, no one says move to Bangladesh. Maybe @Joe Shearer can tell us if back home, Bangladesh replaces Pakistan.

So in summary, this is about an outside faith and culture with whom the majority native faith of the soil, the overwhelming dominant faith, the faith that did not choose to have a nation in its name, has a very bloody and fraught history with.

NOT the people.

In the Blood Faith Soil paradigm of ancient Aryan theology and belief, Islam does not fit here.

Or in Iran.

In Iran however, the dominant faith and culture is Muslim. And we all know what happened to the resident ancestral faith and its followers.

Not in India.

Cheers, Doc
This is as good an explanation as any, awkward and ill-sounding though it may seem. I can name two members posting; from their posts, we get the same hostility to the Old Faith that was on display earlier. So why blame one side over the other?

By now, it must be clear to the whole world that I, personally, detest and abhor the present prevailing ideology and their theology as well. The problem is that our anglicised elite, Doc and I, for instance, are being rapidly replaced by the trained but not educated classes earning high salaries and with no thought in their minds outside their discipline. A look at the Indian cricket team thirty years ago and as it is today will explain clearly what is meant.
 
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Do you people ever listen yourself talking? How absurd do you sound? How stupid you sound?

Modi for all the evil he is and all the evil his party is has not yet done one single thing on the lines of what Pakistan has done recently in expelling Afghanis in their land. And Pakistani are supposed to be Muslims!

Its not just the incompetence (which is a real concern in India) but unwillingness to act on true genocidal lines -- thankfully. Leave outside India, within India there is nothing on the lines of systematic genocide and oppression that has been done by Chinese or even British in North America. And there is a very big reason why Modi can never really go on those lines. Modi is ultimately answerable to the businessmen in India and not the other way round ( contrast with Indira Gandhi ). He will never do things that will mess interests of Indian business community.

Truely we suffer more from the imagined daemons than the real ones.


Indian general elections these days are more presidential than parliamentary in nature. People have literally said that if Modi asks us to vote for my house maid, we will... To the point that INC and its allies had to launch a campign "educating" people to vote for the representative in their constituency and not the PM candidate... An ultimate submission that they have no real PM candidate.

Nehru and Modi enjoyed the same boon. Both never had a real competitor for throne.
Listen pal it’s not me making stupid comments, it’s RSS BJP leaders.

1. https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...nd-bharat-tripura-cm/article67002419.ece/amp/

2. https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india...s-name-change-debate-india-2431977-2023-09-06

3. https://theprint.in/india/why-did-c...a-of-partition-asks-hardeep-puri/1714278/?amp

These are but a few examples. Why are elected Chief Ministers and Federal Govt ministers from RSS BJP party claiming so x called Indian expansionism ? Please go fool someone else.
 
Don't be knowingly obtuse.

There is zero belief anywhere in India that our Muslims are not our own stock.

On the contrary, the misinterpretation is entirely on YOUR part.
And deliberately so to rehash the trite nationalistic slogans -- as if anyone outside India cares.

My statement was in the context of Hinduism being just as alien as Islam to the region in question. My reference to ghar wapsi made it abundantly clear that the context was religion, not ethnicity. You cannot change a person's ethnicity, but you can change their religion. Perhaps you need to brush up on your Hindi to understand what wapsi means.

Ironically and, amusingly as always, you betrayed your own biases while chanting the slogans.

As for ghar wapsi, rest assured that you as a Parsi are also in line, whether you like it or not, no matter how many slogans you chant.
 
By now, it must be clear to the whole world that I, personally, detest and abhor the present prevailing ideology and their theology as well. The problem is that our anglicised elite, Doc and I, for instance, are being rapidly replaced by the trained but not educated classes earning high salaries and with no thought in their minds outside their discipline.

That is why I am not as sanguine as some about the future.

I have immense respect for the Indian tradition of emphasis on education, especially compared to Pakistan, and the difference shows in the respective governments. Indian policy planners have been running circles around their Pakistani counterparts.

That is why it is puzzling that they have failed to learn from Pakistan's mistakes in courting religious extremism. Do they really believe they will be able to control it? Only a fool believes that he can bottle a thunderstorm.
 
By now, it must be clear to the whole world that I, personally, detest and abhor the present prevailing ideology and their theology as well. The problem is that our anglicised elite, Doc and I, for instance, are being rapidly replaced by the trained but not educated classes earning high salaries and with no thought in their minds outside their discipline. A look at the Indian cricket team thirty years ago and as it is today will explain clearly what is meant.

FINALLY!!!! Can we get a hallelujah?!!! Finally the penny drops for le ancient one. Finally he gets what I realised and what I have been saying since my romance with the Sangh ended in 2015 or 2016, when I did a volte face to my earlier vsdoc avatar.

This is NOT a religious war. This is only being sold to the masses as one, as the easiest (in the subcontinent) and sharpest tool in the shed.

This is a CLASS WAR. I see it in my real life everyday. Have been intimately touched by it too.

This is a takeover of India by the, what I favouritely refer to as, vernacular class. Who believe their time has come, never mind their actual quality of living, and are chomping at the bit.

It just so happens that the vast seething majority of it that drives it is the cow/Hindi belt Hindu.

Welcome to the light Joe.

Cheers, Doc

As for ghar wapsi, rest assured that you as a Parsi are also in line, whether you like it or not, no matter how many slogans you chant.

Lol. Ok my Pakistani friend.

So Hindus are going to do ghar wapsi of Agni poojak Param Hindus.

Gotcha.

Cheers, Doc
 
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That is why I am not as sanguine as some about the future.

I have immense respect for the Indian tradition of emphasis on education, especially compared to Pakistan, and the difference shows in the respective governments. Indian policy planners have been running circles around their Pakistani counterparts.

That is why it is puzzling that they have failed to learn from Pakistan's mistakes in courting religious extremism. Do they really believe they will be able to control it? Only a fool believes that he can bottle a thunderstorm.
Oh dear.
So you understand India as little as do the BJP leadership.
There is a very sharp difference between the Sanghi politicians and the administrative services and professional classes, in terms of intelligence. One proof of this differential is the complete incompetence, unmatched in 70 years, of the political classes (exceptions prove the rule), most particularly, the members of the central ministry. Something as simple as this does not penetrate their thick skulls. Possibly in their personal wallowing in the luxury that an Indian ministership can yield, if required and if desired, they are unwilling to look at anything that might loosen their grip on power. They do not see why their winning election model should be relinquished.
Look what you made me do.

FINALLY!!!! Can we get a hallelujah?!!! Finally the penny drops for le ancient one. Finally he gets what I realised and what I have been saying since my romance with the Sangh ended in 2015 or 2016, when I did a volte face to my earlier vsdoc avatar.
:(

This is NOT a religious war. This is only being sold to the masses as one, as the easiest (in the subcontinent) and sharpest tool in the shed.

This is a CLASS WAR. I see it in my real life everyday. Have been intimately touched by it too.

This is a takeover if India by the, what I favouritely refer to as, vernacular class.
And to think I avoided that term as being too condescending. That is what it is, though.

It just so happens that the vast seething majority of it that drives it is the cow/Hondi belt Hindu.
👍

Welcome to the light Joe.
🤒
 
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