Green light for Eurofighter from Germany for the Turkish Air Force

[UKBengali]

Not talking about hiding it, if you expected a kill switch to be installed, it has no point hiding it, because you are going to find out where it was as it's function related, it will stick out in the source code like a sore thumb. You only need to do a function check on the code and you can locate it, you don't need to look at all the source code, and even if you do (Let's say NATO have that level of capability on hiding stuff), it won't take a team of prog years go over all the code. I mean you have more than 1 people working right?

Hardly anyone gets access to the source code.

If Turkey demands and gets access to the source code then they may be able to find out after some work, but again with 10s of millions of lines of code it is not that easy and they will try and mask it by probably writing in assembly or even machine code(1s and 0s).

 

[Developereo]

Not talking about hiding it, if you expected a kill switch to be installed, it has no point hiding it, because you are going to find out where it was as it's function related, it will stick out in the source code like a sore thumb. You only need to do a function check on the code and you can locate it, you don't need to look at all the source code, and even if you do (Let's say NATO have that level of capability on hiding stuff), it won't take a team of prog years go over all the code. I mean you have more than 1 people working right?

And it has to be protected physically (as in whatever hosting that code, otherwise they could just replace that part) and in term of encoding, which mean you can't by-pass or remove those code or they won't work. And then you need to think about constantly update it, because it won't work if you upgrade the system, and in case Turkey try to hack the code...........

This is going to be a nightmare for programmer, in fact, I don't honestly think you can do it, because too much risk associated with this, what if it accidentally trigger, how do you get access if the system is insulated. And how do you kill the function on demand and on intent when you don't want it to work and only if you do. Developing such tech would have cost billions of dollars for a working sample. it's a lot easier just not to sell Turkey those platform.....

All of that is trivial.
Let me repeat it, trivial.

Buddy, I have written firmware. I have friends who burn their own EPROM. I have worked on low level Unix system calls and device drivers.

You can hide a routine in 'unused' memory which is invisible to everyone, including the operating system, until a crucial piece of code makes that memory accessible. This is just one of many, many, many ways that software can be hidden. There are plenty more ways.

Remember, this is not an external virus that has to fight its way past system security. This is a virus that is implanted by the manufacturer.

 

[hyperman]

Dude, you are thinking it's a guaranteed success, what if you need fighter tomorrow? You don't fight a war with what you would have, you fight a war with what you had at hand, you can't come back to your enemy and say "can you start the war 10 years later when I got everything ready?" Defence article is ALWAYS on demand.

Safety line is you have a restriction fighter is still better than you have nothing when you need it, and you are talking about multi-billion fighter program, not a drone, again, there are no guaranteed it's going to materialised when you see big name like Lockheed and Mitsubishi failed to materialise their own fighter platform.....

The counterpoint here is Sweden managed to build a fighter like the Gripen.

Of course you can materialize it, it all depends on experience and technical knowhow, which Turkey has being a member of the original F-16 co development and the F-35 co development.

Buying fighters also has the downside of less money allocated for domestic acquisition. regardless, if you order today its not like you will receive the platform tomorrow, so the point of "you need a fighter tomorrow" is moot. The timeline for development in this case is not too far off from when you would receive the fighters if you bought off the shelf.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I can't imagine the whole source code for the entire platform would be provided just because the client wanted to integrate some local systems. That is not how modern software works. It is very modular and based around various bus protocols, and Turkey will be provided with an API that allows it to register new munitions and the parameters for its operation.

The aircraft will be certified to operate weapons of certain size, drag and weight out of the box, so as long as Turkey adheres to those specifications and it has the API, it can do what it wants within that. Maybe the firecontrol computer will have its software provided, but that fire control computer will operate with its neigbouring systems over a bus, and the neigbouring systems can remain as black box systems.

 

[hyperman]

Take it easy bro. Its 2 decades we are trying to have a reliable heavy turbofan engine, not to mention the hurry we are in.

Russians do the same with us, trying to throw tens of their 4th generation garbages at us with rumors that people hear like Iran wants to buy 400 Mig-35s. Or Iran buys 1,000 J-10 lol.

Luckily Turks are not sanctioned by the whole world leaving multiple options for them.

We have to go our own way, Turkey can bargain to have what it wants.

Turkey and Iran are a bit different on the turbofans in that Turkey was license producing the engines for the F-16 in Turkey from the very beginning.

I don't think Iran has prioritized Air Force and chose to put the resources to its ballistic missiles program. If Iran really wanted to develop turbofans, it would start with license producing the RD-33 or other Turbofans, in a deal with Russia, to gain experience, just like Turkey did with the GE F-110 Engine.

 

[hyperman]

check out the Dolphin class submarines they got.

Yep, custom made for Nuclear Proliferation, but they look the other way, but somehow have an issue with it if a country like Pakistan tries to purchase submarines that are used for cruise missile launches that have nuclear warheads.

 

[hyperman]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[hyperman]

It would seem the Eurofighters T3 are coming second hand likely via Qatar. This should be a very quick delivery if they are coming from Qatar second hand.

 

[j_hungary]

All of that is trivial.
Let me repeat it, trivial.

Buddy, I have written firmware. I have friends who burn their own EPROM. I have worked on low level Unix system calls and device drivers.

You can hide a routine in 'unused' memory which is invisible to everyone, including the operating system, until a crucial piece of code makes that memory accessible. This is just one of many, many, many ways that software can be hidden. There are plenty more ways.

Remember, this is not an external virus that has to fight its way past system security. This is a virus that is implanted by the manufacturer.

Well, I have written LLM and other Machine Learning Source code, as well as all type of coding from Pascal to XML (Whatever UNSW taught) and I also work as a L3 Communication codex installer with ASC, so with respect, this is not some low-level coding experience we are talking about.

You can't hide "routine" source code because each section has their functions (ie, control something) and since you are talking about something that control the direct function of a platform (Engine, Radar and etc) it WILL shorten the shortlist of where you need to look at if you know it exist and try to find it. You don't need to look at the entire platform to get it done.

Granted, this is not some small datamining stuff that you can hack with a home computer, but we are talking about governmental level with teams of computer programmer and software engineer, this can be done. And if you pass that on to other country like China that have serious capability to reverse engineer, that's not something that hard to find it.

The issue is not finding it, the issue is how you can get rid of it, this code usually protected in a Flash ROM chip, which mean if you try to get unauthorised access to it, it will flash override the data in it, and that render your platform useless (this is how a typical kill switch work), so you will need to get rid of that in order to get it shorted out. It's harder than you think, but not undoable, especially to tech powerhouse like China, that's how they copy Su-27 to begin with. So for the US/NATO to develop such a thing, you are going to have to look beyond the capability of Turkey, again, which make it a lot cheaper simply not to sell stuff to Turkey......

 

[j_hungary]

Hardly anyone gets access to the source code.

If Turkey demands and gets access to the source code then they may be able to find out after some work, but again with 10s of millions of lines of code it is not that easy and they will try and mask it by probably writing in assembly or even machine code(1s and 0s).

Everyone get access to source code, if you don't have access to the source code, your hardware don't work.........

The issue is not how to get access to source code, the issue are how to decrypt the source code, and how to alter it without altering its function.

Think about it like a computer game code, no developer wants their source code to be published, but you can't play the game if you can't access to the code, this is what DLL come from, you store your encrypted source code in a DLL file.

how to edit or see the source code for dll files

I have a DLL file for old game(age of empires) I just want to edit that file or see the source code. I tried reflector toll and some others, but without any result so, 1- how can I edit or see th...

stackoverflow.com

Of course, military hardware is a bit different, but the concept is the same. Just they don't use DLL file and it taken probably harder to crack those encryption (It's not gonna be commercially 256 bit encryption)

 

[MMM-E]

Greek's supposedly downgraded Mirage 2000 shot down a Turkish F-16D in a clash in 1996.

Turkish F-16D was unarmed in training flight

 

[LeGenD]

On a general and lighter note, good to see Germany opening up to export of Eurofighter Typhoon to Turkey.

It is a good aircraft.

I think that Turkey can negotiate terms as per its needs or have balance. There is a starting point now.

NATO does not benefit from infighting so some member states attempt to reduce tensions between Greece and Turkey - this is logical from NATO standpoint.

I am personally happy to see Turkey becoming better and having its needs met.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Everyone get access to source code, if you don't have access to the source code, your hardware don't work.........

The issue is not how to get access to source code, the issue are how to decrypt the source code, and how to alter it without altering its function.

Think about it like a computer game code, no developer wants their source code to be published, but you can't play the game if you can't access to the code, this is what DLL come from, you store your encrypted source code in a DLL file.

>> No - what is stored in a DLL is "compiled" code in the native cpu instruction set, not source code ... just saying.

 

[MMM-E]

Second, if NATO is going all out for nothing in Ukraine against Russia, which is not a NATO member, you are probably going to see NATO sending aid Greece way at least the same level, if not more, which Turkey is not Russia and Greece is in the NATO.

Turkiye is not Russia who begged even kamikaze Drones and Tactical Ballistic Missiles from Iran

Russia lack modern and cost effective game changer weapons

And Ukraine is not tiny Greece which lack strategic dept for self defense

all Greek Air bases , Naval ports , Air Defense Systems , military and strategic targets are in range of the Turkish Armed Forces

only Turkish Ballistic and Cruise Missiels , long range guided munitions , kamikaze Drones and Air Defense Systems are enough for Greece with even NATO aid

10 million tiny Greece never can match with 90 million Turkiye which has its own advanced defense industry



btw if needed , Turkiye can buy Fighter Jets from Russia and China

 

[Ali_Baba]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Odd that they are going for 2nd hand Typhoons. Wonder what the rush is? Are these going to be a temporary lease until they get new built F4 variants? Can these 2nd hand ones be upgraded to the latest variant?

Guess we will know in the next few months if/when a contract is actually signed.