Blud there are 3 timelines in market ada director is saying something drdo director is saying something else.. most logical timeline is 2026.
HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions
- Thread starter indushek
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Faceless
Registered Member
and your point being, just because we were using such a huge number of light fighters in the past doesn't mean the same tactics and aircraft mx is relevant today.
Just answer one question who will you use that many mk1a against, certainly not China,
Times change, new enemy's emerge, tactics evolve, what was the norm in yesterday's battlefield will not work in tomorrow's wars.
IAF desperately needs medium weight fighters, we have an enemy with over 600 J10s, we can't rely on MK1As to counter those, we need Tejas MK2 for that and ordering any more than additional 57 MK1As will mean directly eating away the numbers of MK2
Exactly my point, Tejas MK1A are at the end of their upgrade cycle, ordering more MK1As will eat away the order size of MK2, (a much more upgradable plane)
THIS ENTIRE RANT OF MINE IS BASED ON THE HOPE THAT MK 2 WILL REACH IOC FAST (2030-32) OTHERWISE ORDERING MORE MK1A IS THE RIGHT CHOICE
MirageBlue
Registered Member
That makes sense. I always advocate for making 2-seat variants of the same type of aircraft a must and better than say a separate make for a trainer. It just makes so much more sense and is ultimately better as a smoother transition, especially for cadets, green fresh out of the academy.
Wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute, my friend. What do you mean by "6 MiG-29KUB"? I'm trying to figure out if by "6" you mean 6 squadrons which sounds a bit too much considering the average squadron is 12 aircraft so that would mean a total of 72 which I don't think the IN has that many.
As far as I know (which is only as an outside fan looking in and by no means am I an expert in IAF/IN number of aircraft lol) is that there is a total of 45 MiG-29Ks in the IN. Are you saying that out of those 45 Ks, there are 6 KUBs? Or am I missing something?
Now that makes sense and is interesting that they would buy 4 Bs (2-seaters) and the other 22 are single-seat Ms which I would think they would do the opposite and load up more in the Bs than the Ms considering the IAF is usually much more interested in the dual-seat fighter configuration for almost all its fighters. The FGFA being the prime example of that line of thinking. Interesting.
So that brings us back almost full circle to the MiG-29KUB count. If you're saying there is a limited number of the naval 29s, I still find it hard to believe there's only 6 of them! lol. I must be confusing & missing something.
But it's also a testament to the rise of the Tejas and how it's impacting the numbers. Now if it only was in a dual engine configuration, there might not be any need for the MiGs or Rafales, despite the latter's technological prowess.
I also think that had the Tejas been a dual-engine LCA, it would've won the recent Egyptian tender for a light combat aircraft with local production and the whole kicking kabutle. I was really rooting for it because of obvious reasons but they ended up going with the South Korean KAI-T-50 Golden Eagle. It's not bad at all, but too much US influence that the Tejas IMO would've been an all-around better option.
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I think the number of aircraft the EAF wanted was too low for HAL to consider providing a contract with ToT and that makes all the sense in the world. Business is business and if it's not worth it, it's not worth it. Simple but too bad.
I also think with the strong possibility of a Eurofighter Typhoon contract being signed in the next few month for 24 jets, the EAF will be drowning in delta-winged fighters. Between the 54 Rafales, 15 Mirage 2Ks, 24 EFTs (countless Mirage Vs that we're not sure have been retired or not) and an additional 24-30 Tejas loool. Delta wing heaven!
Speaking of the Indian Navy and Rafale Ms & Bs, there are vicious rumors floating around in Egypt that the EN is interested in purchasing the Charles De Gaul carrier along with 24 Rafale Ms loooool. I think we've gone mental TBH. If that ever came to fruition, I'm retiring from aviation fandom and just gonna sit on my worn-out recliner and watch TV for the rest of my life lmao.
Makes a lot of sense. I kinda figured it was something along those lines but I never knew about the failed testing story. I'm not surprised TBH as that's not an unfamiliar scenario with Russian A2A missiles. The R-77 also has a troubled history of testing stories that are similar to that of this R-73E you mentioned. It's a shame, really, since Russia could really use a boost in the reputation of its weapons systems as well as other air forces being able to have other options.
I'm hoping that with the introduction of the R-74, R-77-1 and especially the R-37M that there is a whole new success level that promotes Russian A2A missiles into a better and competitive light, especially when it has to deal with western systems that are only getting better & better and moving to the top of the list. Between the AIM-120C7/D, AIM-260, AIM-9X, IRST-SL, MBDA's MICA NG and of course the vaunted Meteor, Russia has its work cut out for it if wishes to keep playing with the big boys.
BTW, are there any pics of Indian Rafales carrying the Meteor that you know of? I've been looking for one and can't seem to find any.
IN bought more MiG-29K single seaters and fewer numbers of MiG-29KUB twin seaters. A couple of the KUBs have been lost in accidents as well, so the overall numbers have reduced.
IN needs carrier capable fighters and the Rafale B can't land on their aircraft carriers. They'll simply be used for conversion to the Rafale M and maintaining currency on the Shore Based Test Facility (STBF) in Goa. Hence the 22 single seater Rafale Ms that will embark on the carrier and 4 Rafale Bs for shore based training.
Regarding the R-77, it is slowly being relegated to a somewhat secondary BVRAAM role, alongside R-27s. Neither are considered state of the art anymore. The current IAF choice for the Su-30MKIs is the Astra Mk1 and Mk2. Once the MiG-29UPGs get integrated with the Astra series, they'll also use them over the R-77s.
IAF Mirage-2000s will continue to use the MICA EM, but I hope they get the Astra Mk1/2 in time. Rafales will apparently also be integrated with the Astra as per some report. But the IAF has adequate stocks of Meteor and MICA EMs for the small fleet of Rafales.
Eventually when the Astra Mk3 (an indigenous Meteor equivalent BVRAAM) is ready, it should hopefully see very widespread usage.
Interestingly, there is even an Astra IR missile being developed by DRDO apparently.
It does seem that with indigenous BVRAAMs being developed and entering service, there will be fewer and in the future, possibly no Russian BVRAAM in IAF service. Those that can be overhauled and life extended, will see usage as SAM missiles, used on the SAMAR type SAM that the IAF developed with DRDO and couple of private firms. They may even use R-77s for this purpose in the future, once Astra Mk1/2/3 numbers are large enough in stock.
IAF Rafale with Meteor
SAMAR with R-73E and R-27 missiles that were overhauled and life extended.
MirageBlue
Registered Member
The MRFA program ought to be scrapped for sure. But the Rafale strength can't be capped at 36. Simply too small for the IAF's needs, and uneconomical given that they invested in airfield infrastructure, simulators, etc. plus India Specific Enhancements worth nearly $1 billion.
The IAF could as of today support 72 Rafales at it's 2 airbases (Ambala and Hasimara) without having to add too much new infra.
Which means that adding another 36-54 Rafales off the shelf is the sensible way to go.
Ideally, the IN's 26 Rafales and the IAF's 72 should've been clubbed together to get to ~100 Rafales and that should've given Dassault incentive to start a new assembly line in India. But Indian procurement never works on clubbing IN and IAF needs together to get larger numbers and give the supplier more incentives to sweeten the deal.
MirageBlue
Registered Member
Just FYI, the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A is not short legged. It is adequate for the Western border given the distances to the border, time on station and then return.
With aerial refueling, it can undertake on 2-3 hour missions as long as adequate LOX is carried.
Tejas' range is more than that of the Jaguar. Source- Grp Cpt HV Thakur. And he knows. He was a Jaguar squadron CO prior to becoming a HAL Test Pilot.
But I agree that the Tejas Mk2 is the ideal size. We need plenty of the Tejas Mk1A as well as Mk2. With MRFA going nowhere, that is hopefully what'll happen as well.
MirageBlue
Registered Member
You don't need to worry about the additional 97. The reasoning is that the Tejas Mk1A is here and ready. It is in production and it is a matter of scaling up the numbers in production.
Tejas Mk2 is as good as a new fighter itself. it will have it's own set of far more complex testing with a much larger set of test points to be covered. All of which could mean some delays.
Plus, for the IAF, it is crucial to have a pipeline of 4.5 gen fighters being delivered year after year to ensure that not only does it have a replacement for the oldest Jaguars that will retire from 2028 onwards, but also an affordable one.
harpy1
Trusted Member
No way are we delivering combat ready mark 2 Tejas fighters in 2025..
We will take five years to deliver 5 prototypes IE 2030
Let's get real
Induction of first combat ready Mark two fighters not before 2032
First full squadron 18 planes 2034
Five plus squadrons say 100 planes by 2040
I would be gobsmacked if earlier
GoMig-21
Elite Member
You are correct, sir. I forgot about the Bs not being carrier capable. Too bad, really, considering the value Dassault put into the 2-seat models that they wouldn't make the Marine version a 2-seater as a priority. It seems their air warfare tactics mostly evolve around the B model more so than the single seat, especially now that they'll be introducing the Neuro wingman drone concept with the F5. I would think a RIO or WSO in the backseat would be essential for the operation of this concept and critical to have with their navy.
That's really sad, man. It's like watching the impending doom of a classic movie star's career end. Considering how "Russian-centric" the Indian Air Force & Navy & Military has been for decades and to see it slowly die off like this is nothing but sad. Can't blame anyone but the Russians themselves. Even if they did work of improving their missile's shortcomings and introduced better missiles through the years, they never really marketed them like they should have. Their marketing strategy has been poor to say the least. For example, their touted R-37M is supposedly better than the Meteor, but look at the latter's marketing success vs the former's? It's like night & day. Shame.
IAF Rafale with Meteor
Nice. That pisses me off.
It sucks how we get screwed over every time. Our bungholes are getting too sore to put up with this anymore. Everyone who's bought the Rafale has been supplied with Meteors except the 1st one who helped Dassault launch their unprecedented export market of the Rafale. Tell me if you think that makes any sense?! Hoping it ends with the next batch of Rafales & possibly EFTs. We'll see what happens.Sweet. I read somewhere (not sure of the validity of this information) that the Russian A2A missiles have a much lower "time between overhaul" than western missiles. Might be one of the issues that happened with the IAF when a large number of missiles that were stored went bad and the IAF complained to the Russians about them citing defective missiles. I believe the Russians claimed the IAF wasn't storing them in proper conditions and that the storage facility was too humid which ended up ruining the missiles. Did you hear about this story? Any truth to it?
Might explain the shorter "time between overhauls" accusation. It's a shame, really. Russia needs to improve its systems instead of witnessing one setback after the other. Hopefully their new generation missiles pick up the slack, for their sake.
G
GatlingGun
Guest
For the starters, not 5 but 4 prototypes are planned.
Then , as per recent news the wings are not just fabricated but have been filled up with all the required E-wirings, hydrolics-pneumatics. You would think that ADA-HAL guys were sitting idle until ge404 deal was approved, but that's not the case.
MirageBlue
Registered Member
The original poster didn't say that the Tejas Mk2 will be delivered starting 2025..the first prototype will roll-out in 2025 and as per Dr Jitendra Jadhav, it may even have it's first flight in 2025.
Not sure what makes you think that they'll take 5 years to deliver 5 prototypes. Tejas Mk2 jigs and fixtures are already being built and once they're ready, they'll load them all so that the prototypes should roll-out every 4-5 months.
But yes, flight testing, qualification etc will take 4-5 years at least, even with the experience of Tejas Mk1 helping to reduce the number of test points.
Production will start earlier than that though. At the rate of 24-30 per year, Tejas Mk2 deliveries will be running concurrent with the retirement of MiG-29UPGs and Mirage-2000Is.
MirageBlue
Registered Member
true picture mock up??
These are the models that HAL and ADA have shown during Aero India 2023.
Obviously the models were built by a firm in Bangalore based on drawings provided to them by HAL/ADA. Models are not 100% accurate but this will closely resemble what the prototypes will look like. However, the refueling probe is going to be retractable.
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MirageBlue
Registered Member
You are correct, sir. I forgot about the Bs not being carrier capable. Too bad, really, considering the value Dassault put into the 2-seat models that they wouldn't make the Marine version a 2-seater as a priority. It seems their air warfare tactics mostly evolve around the B model more so than the single seat, especially now that they'll be introducing the Neuro wingman drone concept with the F5. I would think a RIO or WSO in the backseat would be essential for the operation of this concept and critical to have with their navy.
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That's really sad, man. It's like watching the impending doom of a classic movie star's career end. Considering how "Russian-centric" the Indian Air Force & Navy & Military has been for decades and to see it slowly die off like this is nothing but sad. Can't blame anyone but the Russians themselves. Even if they did work of improving their missile's shortcomings and introduced better missiles through the years, they never really marketed them like they should have. Their marketing strategy has been poor to say the least. For example, their touted R-37M is supposedly better than the Meteor, but look at the latter's marketing success vs the former's? It's like night & day. Shame.
Nice. That pisses me off.
Sweet. I read somewhere (not sure of the validity of this information) that the Russian A2A missiles have a much lower "time between overhaul" than western missiles. Might be one of the issues that happened with the IAF when a large number of missiles that were stored went bad and the IAF complained to the Russians about them citing defective missiles. I believe the Russians claimed the IAF wasn't storing them in proper conditions and that the storage facility was too humid which ended up ruining the missiles. Did you hear about this story? Any truth to it?
Might explain the shorter "time between overhauls" accusation. It's a shame, really. Russia needs to improve its systems instead of witnessing one setback after the other. Hopefully their new generation missiles pick up the slack, for their sake.
TBH I am very very happy that the reliance on Russian arms is reducing by leaps and bounds. Being a massive importer of their arms was doing India absolutely no good.
There were many cases where their products did not meet brochure specs and there was no way to redress the issues. Case in point being the issue of defective missiles for which the Russians conveniently blamed their storage, which somehow doesn't seem to affect the Western missiles that the IAF stores in similar sites.
There are many more cases related to the T-90, MiG-21 Bison, MiG-29, etc. where the IAF and IA found to their dismay that not having extensive trials in Indian conditions leads to performance shortfalls which the Russians attributed to Indian conditions and what not.
Now with Indian weapons that is no longer the case. There are no easy ways to avoid having to support indigenously built weapons and the Indian Armed forces are finding out that it is much easier to get support and service for indigenous weapons.
In most missiles now, the last few Russian deals are being done (S-400, Igla-S for urgent needs, etc.) and after these are done, the next gen will only be Indian weapons systems. For e.g. Project Kusha (or LR-SAM), Akash NG, DRDO's own VSHORADS, MANPADs, ATGMs, air launched ATGMs, etc.
And Indian defence industry is growing very rapidly, which is also a huge boost for self sufficiency, export dollars and jobs. Plus as the Russo-Ukranian war shows, without being self sufficient, any country is basically at other's mercy in a prolonged conflict.
Just look at what the indigenous Su-30MKI upgrade entails versus what the Russians were offering for the same earlier. As things stand, after the Su-30MKI upgrade, India will not rely very heavily on Russia for maintaining them since most of the critical avionics and weapons are of non Russian origin.
harpy1
Trusted Member
To win a war we must have our weapons
Nothing wrongb with sharp end small no's of the best that money can buy beit Rafale or Barracuda shortfin subs or predator drone
But we need to be 75% self sufficient
Nothing wrongb with sharp end small no's of the best that money can buy beit Rafale or Barracuda shortfin subs or predator drone
But we need to be 75% self sufficient
